AP vs Standback

[Alexsered]

Which one would I pick? It would all depend. If I need a CUSTOM tune to support a bigger turbo, meth, N.O.S. or something along those lines, I would choose the SB.

However, with my current mods (basically every bolt-on except Turbo Inlet/EMani) I'm very happy with my Cobb AP.

In reality, 99% of those on any of the Mazda forums would be happy with the AP using the 103 Maps (using the right map for their mods). The only time the SB is better (right now) is if you need a custom tune to squeak out every ounce of HP/TQ you can. IE Custom Tune.

The dyno prior to my AP 103 Map dyno, I put down 248WHP/278TQ running 18PSI with CAI, TMIC, Test Pipe, Forge BPV, MBC/Map Clamp. My AP Dyno was 286WHP/296TQ running FMIC, SRI, Test Pipe, HKS BPV. I gained almost 40WHP with the AP with only minor mod changes. I'm sure that with the TBE I have over 300WHP now.

I'm sure 99% of the people here would be perfectly happy with those AP results. Those that need a custom tune can go with the SB or wait for the AP Protune. Ether are great choices.

You keep bringing up your RESEARCH subject so I have to question it. You are running a CPE FULL FLASH with the little mods you have? Also, if you really did want the best you would not be running a Synapse. I'm pretty sure even those of the likes of Laloosh and Palerider would agree that the Synapse has been proven to be the biggest POS ever produced for our car. Sure the Youtube video looks cool, but it's a lie. Everyone who jumped on the Synapse when it was released got screwed. Driver311 was the one pushing it and got a LOT of people to bite. It has went down in the Mazda forums history books as the biggest scam ever.

I bought synapse to prove that their claims were false on their hp claims and that their product was full of crap, but their BOV actually did gain HP compared to my other BOV, and the response was alot better than the HKS SSQV bov and I actually gained HP. I bought their product more as a research and was really surprised and that is why I'm keeping it. I will update my mod list, it's out of date.

And biggest scam ever? A BOV is not a MOD that should ever be high on the list, and the Synapse one is good quality and proved to be worth it to me. I was the first one to bash their youtube video, you can go look it up bud.

And even if I was completely stock, you going to try to tell me that 100% throttle position is not important? Lol, dude get a life. (rlaugh)

 

[Bravnik]

I bought synapse to prove that their claims were false on their hp claims and that their product was full of crap, but their BOV actually did gain HP compared to my other BOV, and the response was alot better than the HKS SSQV bov and I actually gained HP. I bought their product more as a research and was really surprised and that is why I'm keeping it. I will update my mod list, it's out of date.

And biggest scam ever? A BOV is not a MOD that should ever be high on the list, and the Synapse one is good quality and proved to be worth it to me. I was the first one to bash their youtube video, you can go look it up bud.

And even if I was completely stock, you going to try to tell me that 100% throttle position is not important? Lol, dude get a life. (rlaugh)

You would have had to been here for the Driver311 to understand the scam part. The Synapse was proven over and over again to lose power and not hold boost. If you see different then cool. Maybe you got lucky.

It has been proven that there are very minimal HP gains on a stock turbo, not enough to worry about with Full Control. There may be benefit if you have a bigger turbo, but only if you do. Shy of that there is really no benefit.

The limiting factor to our car making more power to redline is CAMs and not the Throttle Plate closing. Until such time as someone makes cams for us, we simply will not see power till redline. You might get a few more HP on the backend but that's it. If you look at my Dyno on the AP and others, they hold power up too and past 6k RPMs. This is not due to Full Control but more to do with CAM Phasing which the AP can adjust and the SB can't (Just guessing here as we don't know yet what Cobb is doing to make this happen).

I tried to find the thread but was unable, but somewhere there is a thread with Dyno's/Logs running Full Throttle vrs Stock and the drop-off didn't change at all and nor did the power. Again, we will never see pulls to 7k until someone makes some cams for us. Besides, the 103 Maps have Full Throttle as well. Not because it helps, but because people wanted it.

I'm not saying the CPE Flash is crap, don't get me wrong I'm sure it is very good actually. I just questioned having a CPE Flash when (in your sig) you really have no mods to take advantage of it. I mean it does not even raise the boost. It's simply $400+ for Full Control that you really don't benefit from and is meant to be utilized along with the SB which in itself can't give you Full Throttle.

 

[MSMS3]

Uh, I was just wondering -- what is the purpose of this thread? It seems to have degenerated into some kind of hair-pulling, name calling contest to see who can throw the most blue word insults at someone else and not get banned. Regardless of who thinks they are "right" and who else is "wrong" isn't there a more responsible way to discuss product comparisons?

Forgive my observations as a newbie. Just curious as to what value this thread adds to the forum.

 

[gtlaw]

Uh, I was just wondering -- what is the purpose of this thread? It seems to have degenerated into some kind of hair-pulling, name calling contest to see who can throw the most blue word insults at someone else and not get banned. Regardless of who thinks they are "right" and who else is "wrong" isn't there a more responsible way to discuss product comparisons?

Forgive my observations as a newbie. Just curious as to what value this thread adds to the forum.

I'll admit its out of control, but I have also decided from it that I want the AP

 

[Alexsered]

Uh, I was just wondering -- what is the purpose of this thread? It seems to have degenerated into some kind of hair-pulling, name calling contest to see who can throw the most blue word insults at someone else and not get banned. Regardless of who thinks they are "right" and who else is "wrong" isn't there a more responsible way to discuss product comparisons?

Forgive my observations as a newbie. Just curious as to what value this thread adds to the forum.

you're right, all I was trying to point out is that there are other companies that can make better products than COBB right now and that people should do some research and not just assume COBB is the best. You know what they about people that assume

 

[bova80]

and just because you think something is the best doesn't mean everyone else is. maybe one product works for you and not for someone else. its been proven that these cars do not all react the same way to the same modifications, be it a speed3 or a speed6. so because you are in love with cp-e doesn't mean everyone else has to be.

 

[Alexsered]

and just because you think something is the best doesn't mean everyone else is. maybe one product works for you and not for someone else. its been proven that these cars do not all react the same way to the same modifications, be it a speed3 or a speed6. so because you are in love with cp-e doesn't mean everyone else has to be.

I'm not in love with CP-E, I will admit that I do like their parts more than any other company right now, but thats mostly because of quality and attention to detail. But you just stated what I have the biggest beef with COBB right now "its been proven that these cars do not all react the same way to the same modifications" so why should we all have to use the same tuning maps?? Thank you for proving my point.

 

[palerider]

i wonder how many people would have bought the AP in May 2008, when it was released if they had been told.... the next 9 months were gonna be a "beta testing" period.

thats bulls***.

and i tuned a gt3071, ms cai, corksport dp, vibrant exhaust, begi fmic, cdfp..... all with v1.

i made 346whp back before guys even knew what 300whp was on this car.

the standback could always tune cars, it was the USERS that needed a learning curve.

The fact that OTS maps from Cobb still dont work right.... tuned by THE DESIGNERS of the product that makes it garbage. This is Cobb remember? The fact that its now being justified that the product isnt "ready", because end users, with APs, are supposed to send their dashhawk logs in is ridiculous.

It took a random guy on the internet(Haltech)... to figure out for these guys that they werent even using the right basemap for the car. All the original designers of the AP dumped Cobb, and left for OpenEcu.... Cobb has been left with rookie newbs and our community is paying for this garbage out of their wallets, as they beta test the product in the field. There is ABSOLUTELY no gaurantee that it will ever be right. Meanwhile people have paid for this thing.

Give me one example where this has ever happened in the aftermarket, whats happening here. One example, where a company has declared full control and absolutely not been close.... even 6 months later. you cant. that is the issue. it should have been RECALLED. the product was released to early and its apologists like Bravnik who havent made them answer for their bad business.

 

[bova80]

and thus thats the whole point of it being beta, so they can work this s*** out. even the ******* standback doesn't work the same on all cars, and unless you know what you are doing, which i know a lot don't, you should **** around with trying to tune it. so how about you just sit back, relax, and just wait and see. or just go buy a standback and leave it be.

 

[bova80]

i wonder how many people would have bought the AP in May 2008, when it was released if they had been told.... the next 9 months were gonna be a "beta testing" period.

thats bulls***.

and i tuned a gt3071, ms cai, corksport dp, vibrant exhaust, begi fmic, cdfp..... all with v1.

i made 346whp back before guys even knew what 300whp was on this car.

the standback could always tune cars, it was the USERS that needed a learning curve.

The fact that OTS maps from Cobb still dont work right.... tuned by THE DESIGNERS of the product that makes it garbage. This is Cobb remember? The fact that its now being justified that the product isnt "ready", because end users, with APs, are supposed to send their dashhawk logs in is ridiculous.

It took a random guy on the internet(Haltech)... to figure out for these guys that they werent even using the right basemap for the car. All the original designers of the AP dumped Cobb, and left for OpenEcu.... Cobb has been left with rookie newbs and our community is paying for this garbage out of their wallets, as they beta test the product in the field. There is ABSOLUTELY no gaurantee that it will ever be right. Meanwhile people have paid for this thing.

Give me one example where this has ever happened in the aftermarket, whats happening here. One example, where a company has declared full control and absolutely not been close.... even 6 months later. you cant. that is the issue. it should have been RECALLED. the product was released to early and its apologists like Bravnik who havent made them answer for their bad business.

well i can't say the same for the speed6 so maybe thats why i am blind to your situation.

 

[SuperStretch18]

and thus thats the whole point of it being beta, so they can work this s*** out. even the ******* standback doesn't work the same on all cars, and unless you know what you are doing, which i know a lot don't, you should **** around with trying to tune it. so how about you just sit back, relax, and just wait and see. or just go buy a standback and leave it be.

I'm trying to stay out of this pissing match, but I just wanted to make one point; if the AP is a beta product, they should say so on the product page:

http://www.cobbtuning.com/products/?id=4100

(bolt)

 

[palerider]

well i can't say the same for the speed6 so maybe thats why i am blind to your situation.

speed 6 does seem to be a different situation. they waited until they knew what the **** they were doing before they released it.

i agree with you...lol

 

[bova80]

they learned from their mistake

 

[Bravnik]

You see Palerider, I'm not an Apologist. If I was NOT happy with the product I would say so. The V1 of the SB was a joke and you and I both know it was. It took TIME to figure out the SB and get V2 out. For over a Year the SB was used, bitched about and returned. Yah it could tune, but it would not KEEP IT. You constantly had to retune it for simple change in weather. Shale I dig up some of Laloosh's famous posts of one day running fine and the next running like s*** logs?

Here is the simple truth. I have basic bolt-ons. I wanted a product that I could buy, install and benefit from with the least amount of effort. The Cobb AP is just that with the 103 Maps (I have NEVER tried the 101/102 Maps so I can't comment on them as good or bad).

I'm happy with the power I have right now. I don't need a bigger Turbo or need to be the fastest MS3 on the road. I simply wanted a good daily driver that had power. I'm already pushing the limit of that as at times the car is a PITA to drive and stay out of the power. Thus I get the on power off power surges that suck in daily driving. However, when I need the power it's there.

Personally the SB was TO MUCH for me. Too much effort. I would have to pay someone to splice it in as I suck at soldering and I'm too cheap to pay $300+ for some wires and plastic clips. After I spent this, I would have to have some dyno time to get it tuned. At GST (My local shop) its like $350 for 2 hours per map. I would want at least 2 maps on a SB.

That is just too much time and effort for me and I'm sure 99% of the users on ANY of the Mazda forums. Now if I was doing a big turbo with Meth and was trying to squeak out the max HP/TQ I could, then yeah the effort would be worth it I'm sure. However, this is NOT the case for me. I drive almost 100miles a day. I need to maintain a daily driver and good gas mileage.

So $635 was a good investment for my situation. I'm HAPPY with my choice and I have zero issues with the AP. I also have Zero issues with anything to do with the SB.

The ONLY issue I have is people saying the AP is garbage. I 100% totally disagree with this. If it was garbage I would NOT be happy with it. Not everyone needs to go max power or bigger turbo. The MAJORITY of us just want a bit more power with the least effort required. The AP owns that realm.

Apologetic? No. Happy Customer? Yes.

If your goal is to buy a product, install it with hardly any effort and get an immediate smile on your face, then the AP is for you. If you want to spend MORE money, More Time to possibly get an even BIGGER smile, then the SB is for you.

 

[truredspeed3]

The SB is a piggyback. But we all know that. My issue right now is the Sb2 is always fighting with the stock ecu. The car ran like a dream when it was first tuned. 411whp/395wtq, gt30@ 26psi+meth..pure goodness..then i started getting cut..then the car ran fine....drove moderatley around the block....then got on it..cut! The sb is great for tuning, but it is not consistent.

Thats where the flash comes in. Yes, the car will overboost with the GT series turbo. I am getting a Tial 44mm ewg that will keep my boost consistent and cure all hope of ever getting cut again.

 

[Bravnik]

The SB is a piggyback. But we all know that. My issue right now is the Sb2 is always fighting with the stock ecu. The car ran like a dream when it was first tuned. 411whp/395wtq, gt30@ 26psi+meth..pure goodness..then i started getting cut..then the car ran fine....drove moderatley around the block....then got on it..cut! The sb is great for tuning, but it is not consistent.

Thats where the flash comes in. Yes, the car will overboost with the GT series turbo. I am getting a Tial 44mm ewg that will keep my boost consistent and cure all hope of ever getting cut again.

Well I agree consistency was an issue with the SB last winter. I have been very curious to see what happens this winter with like Laloosh's SB as I know last year he was going nuts with Cut and inconsistency from day to day. I thought V2 fixed that? I guess we will see as it will be getting cold as hell in NJ soon enough.

Hell I'm worried on my car as I got a lot of stutter last year running my MBC during the winter months if you can call in winter in SF.

 

[bova80]

here is some truth on the matter from cobb about laloosh's dyno. he came to cobb asking for a tune and just that. he was telling cobb what he wanted and what not so cobb did as he asked. christian at cobb told me that laloosh stopped wanting tuned a week before he was going to the dyno although there was much more that could have been done. laloosh provided no data logs of either run to show what kind of timing was going on during the dyno so there is no proof that it was the same. from the logs i've seen during his tuning with cobb and the log of his standback tune i have no doubt that more timing was being run on the standback. also he never told cobb his intentions with the map so i feel they were blindsided and could have done a lot more.

and now here is the part where you try and say well explain the other cars that lost power. my only explination is that those maps aren't complete either, and if can't post a rational answer without sounding like a cocky bastard then don't bother, because i'm trying to be civil.

 

[palerider]

here is some truth on the matter from cobb about laloosh's dyno. he came to cobb asking for a tune and just that. he was telling cobb what he wanted and what not so cobb did as he asked. christian at cobb told me that laloosh stopped wanting tuned a week before he was going to the dyno although there was much more that could have been done. laloosh provided no data logs of either run to show what kind of timing was going on during the dyno so there is no proof that it was the same. from the logs i've seen during his tuning with cobb and the log of his standback tune i have no doubt that more timing was being run on the standback. also he never told cobb his intentions with the map so i feel they were blindsided and could have done a lot more.

and now here is the part where you try and say well explain the other cars that lost power. my only explination is that those maps aren't complete either, and if can't post a rational answer without sounding like a cocky bastard then don't bother, because i'm trying to be civil.

there is another side to that story with chris. thats all i'll say about that.

cobb had all sorts of s*** to say about what ron "didnt" do either....when he made less whp on his cobb tune than the fcf. bottom line... where are all the dynos of these cobb cars that are seeing success.

seems to me it would go along way to shutting us all up. i almost want to be shut up, but its hard to.... when all i see is bulls***. no track times... no dyno sheets..... just logs that dont make the power youd expect. Bravniks dyno was promising but now it looks like a fluke.... i can see why hes so cockstrong. hes the only one in the country whos made any power with the thing, and as a comparison that shows the AP in a positive light.

But even that.... it was followed up with a Tim Bailey protune that made alot less on 4thstrokes car. it just doesnt add up.

 

[Alexsered]

COBB should have done alot more R&D before they started selling the AP. I'm sure that they were worried about other companies like CP-E giving tuning solutions so they felt like they needed to rush the product. But I have to agree with palerider, there have been alot more disappointments with the AP than there have been positive.

They should mention to everyone that is buying the product that they don't promise the gains they mention and that it is in beta testing.

 

[MSMS3]

Thread impression from a newbie looking for an ECU upgrade to match my DP/RP and to coordinate with a yet to be decided intake?

Well, after reading this entire thread, I've come to the conclusion that this is pretty much like our current political campaigns: lots of negative campaigning. No wonder people are turned off by politics.

There seems to be very little positive, constructive, useful information for decision making by the person with a stock system with Stage 1 or Stage 2 basic mods. I think we are the targets for product marketing.

I and probably many others reading this thread will probably just run safely rich and not buy any engine management upgrade -- for the time being. Going negative: Not good for our vendors. Not good for the consumer. But makes the negative campaigners happy.

Sorry guys, but I'm turned off and am tuning out for the time being. I hope I have not offended anyone but this kind of "debate" does not sell product, at least not to me.

Apparantly each option, SB's piggy back and AP's flash have distinct advantages and disadvantages in their present form, but trying to wade through all the dissing and harping on personalities is just to much for me.

I'd get more use out of knowing what one product CAN do and DO WELL rather than hearing what the other guy's product supposedly CAN'T DO.

Dunno -- just me.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled . . . program?