Speed3 at 465whp!

Compression makes a difference. The videos posted SAY 3inch exhaust, FMIC, GT35R, Manifold and tial wastegate, it's all there for this MS3. Not talking about you Mazdaspeed20035; some people are throwing dumb remarks like oh your using two intercoolers. It's obvious that he did one run with the stock intercooler and then one with the FMIC installed the next day. All people have to do is read his posts.

I'm just venting a little cause people constantly want something that's making great power and there's always those three little haters just talking outa their ass. I read a few of the inflammatory posts on youtube and it's downright stupid. Half those kids prolly don't even know half of what their talking about. This is why companies wonder why they even bother cause they do the R&D and then get shitted on when they show it off.



I mean I totally agree with you Alfredo, we both know how Hiboost work, they simply make good quality parts and the way they tune the cars are awesome. but Wow man, you really think that MS3 is making that amount of power with OEM injectors, Fuel Pump and only 20 psi ? I would love to believe it, but sounds too much for what that car have done engine wise... I mean, Im pretty sure you know more than me about TBK and Hiboost recent Projects, ive been disconected from them since a long time but.. You tell me, you really think that dyno is true ?
 
I mean I totally agree with you Alfredo, we both know how Hiboost work, they simply make good quality parts and the way they tune the cars are awesome. but Wow man, you really think that MS3 is making that amount of power with OEM injectors, Fuel Pump and only 20 psi ? I would love to believe it, but sounds too much for what that car have done engine wise... I mean, Im pretty sure you know more than me about TBK and Hiboost recent Projects, ive been disconected from them since a long time but.. You tell me, you really think that dyno is true ?

I have no reason not to believe it. I don't mind asking the exact setup again but I think it's pretty clear on youtube. Remember that whenever a new car comes out it takes time for aftermarket support to come up then it also takes some time for people to find the niche of the car to make big power. I wanna say HiBoost has done it again with the MS3. Just like AMS and Bushur are known for Evo work. Obviously HiBoost knows something the rest of the companies don't and therefore that's what makes them different from the rest.
 
I have no reason not to believe it. I don't mind asking the exact setup again but I think it's pretty clear on youtube. Remember that whenever a new car comes out it takes time for aftermarket support to come up then it also takes some time for people to find the niche of the car to make big power. I wanna say HiBoost has done it again with the MS3. Just like AMS and Bushur are known for Evo work. Obviously HiBoost knows something the rest of the companies don't and therefore that's what makes them different from the rest.


Well i have no doubt of the capabilities of Hiboost and that was enough for me to spend my money in their Place, but then again i really Doubt stock injectors and stock fuel pump can hold or make that amount of power. then again of course is possible to make that power and more, i'm not questioning that part, but i really can't believe or think stock Fuel System can handle that amount of power, also AMS and other companies make their cars powerful but using Performance parts, Forged pistons and rods, bigger injectors, modified or bigger Fuel pumps, engine managements etc.. im just doubting that MS3 can make that amount of power with just FMIC, Exhaust, Etc, and Stock everything else.. I'm not talking bad about them because if i do I'am talking bad about my own car, because in a way or not TBK which is Hiboost did my car and i'm very happy with it but you sure need more than what is listed in that video to make that amount of power Alfredo.
 
Last edited:
Well i have no doubt of the capabilities of Hiboost and that was enough for me to spend my money in their Place, but then again i really Doubt stock injectors and stock fuel pump can hold or make that amount of power. then again of course is possible to make that power and more, i'm not questioning that part, but i really can't believe or think stock Fuel System can handle that amount of power, also AMS and other companies make their cars powerful but using Performance parts, Forged pistons and rods, bigger injectors, modified or bigger Fuel pumps, engine managements etc.. im just doubting that MS3 can make that amount of power with just FMIC, Exhaust, Etc, and Stock everything else.. I'm not talking bad about them because if i do I'am talking bad about my own car, because in a way or not TBK which is Hiboost did my car and i'm very happy with it but you sure need more than what is listed in that video to make that amount of power Alfredo.

ill ask about the fuel system...remember that the MS3 has Direct injection not like the Protege system. In addition stock Evos can easily make 400+ on stock blocks but then again blow easy if not tuned well.
 
ill ask about the fuel system...remember that the MS3 has Direct injection not like the Protege system. In addition stock Evos can easily make 400+ on stock blocks but then again blow easy if not tuned well.

Sounds good to me, Definitely find out what exactly that MS3 have under the hood, Glad to hear that Hiboost is still running and still doing business. Sad i have lost contact with them. i have so much business for them here in Spain, MS3, MS6, Seat Ibiza, Leon, Cordoba, Renaults, Ford Focus etc, I'm Currently doing business with different performance shops in here they are very interested in their Turbo kits after seeing how my car is running and the quality of work they have done to it. I know they make Turbo Kits for European cars, the same they have in Colombia. I was talking about this the other day with all of the owners and they seem very interested and with good amount of people that might be interested in their Products.. I just dont know if is a good idea to email Manuel or Juan after the conflict we had at the end...
 
Last edited:
Tell you what, use the Garrett equations and do the exact same thing you've done but use 300 hp and 500 hp in addition to the 400 hp you've already computed. You'll find that the change in power between 300 hp, 400 hp, and 500 hp is exactly the same as the change in the absolute pressure.

I'll make it easy, and I'm assuming a constant manifold temperature of 80 degrees, which we KNOW won't stay constant and which we KNOW will increase the necessary change in PR, but since that's the INEFFICIENCY in my above statements, we'll ignore it for now. I also used a more realistic A:F of 11.5:1.
300 hp = an absolute pressure of 27.78 psia
400 hp = an absolute pressure of 37.04 psia
500 hp = an absolute pressure of 46.31 psia

300 hp to 400 hp = a change of 1.33 times, 27.78 to 37.04 = a change of 1.33 times to the absolute pressure.
400 hp to 500 hp = a change of 1.25 times, 37.04 to 46.30 = a change of 1.25 times to the absolute pressure.

The change to the absolute pressure is also the change to the pressure ratio, which is what the rule of thumb is saying.

By the way, I created a hypothetical "90 hp" engine and ran it through the Garrett stuff to prove a point. I had to use 100 hp, a 1.6 liter displacement and a VE of 0.75 to get an engine weak enough. Still used the same RPMs. And remember, those have to be constant for the rule of thumb.

Using the Garrett equations, for that motor to make 400 hp would require 58.93 psia, or 44.2 lbs of boost.

Using the rule of thumb, going from 100 hp naturally aspirated to 400 hp boosted would require 400/100 = 4 * 14.7 = 58.8 - 14.7 = 44.1 lbs of boost.

By the way, you'd have to spin that hypothetical 100 hp 1.6 liter motor 11,250 RPMs to make 400 hp at 20 psi.

I'm not the snide type so there won't be any smart aleck rejoinders.

I don't use rules of thumb. I use math that is proven to work.

One last point before I drop this pointless discussion entirely. There at the end of your dissertation, it was 90 HP not 100HP. You should remember the starting parameters before continuing with mathematical formulas, the answer usually ends up incorrect if you don't.

And don't be like me and retort with smart remarks, hold your head high and be righteous (but wrong), makes no difference to me.
 
I specifically said I used 100 hp. The exact quote was, "I had to use 100 hp, a 1.6 liter displacement and a VE of 0.75 to get an engine weak enough." I used 100 hp in both methods, the Garrett method (which you stated worked and staked your position on while lambasting my understanding of it earlier), and the "rule of thumb." The goal power in both was 400 hp. So, the answer is indeed correct, only your understanding of the methods is "wrong."

Anyone who remembers one iota of high school chemistry and algebra (you know, math that is proven to work) would likely remember the Ideal Gas Law. A simple little equation that reads, "PV=nRT." Air isn't an ideal gas, but at the relatively low levels of change we're dealing with, we can ASSUME it behaves as one for simplification.

Now, the average high school algebra student can probably tell you that when you're changing one side of the equation, something on the other side has to change as well to maintain equality. Math that works, right?

In this case, we'll change the P (pressure) while leaving the V (volume, in this case displacement) constant. On the other side we'll leave the T (Temperature) constant as well, though in real life that will change and, once again, is the efficiency of the system. The R (Gas Constant) also remains the same since we're just talking about plain ol' air and not replacing it with some exotic substance. And that leaves us with what?

Here is the answer - it leaves us with the ratio of the change in pressure being equal to ratio of the change in number of moles of the gas. Since the number of moles directly relates to the mass, and the change in mass is what produces a change in power, what we end up with is, "Doubling the absolute pressure doubles the power." "Tripling the absolute pressure triples the power." Math that is proven to work?

It's that simple. And by the way, that's EXACTLY What the Garret mathematics are saying, except that they're running the necessary airmass through the equation as well.

And since a naturally aspirated motor makes it's power at an absolute pressure of 14.7 psia at STP, it stands to reason that every time you multiply that, you can multiply the power by the same amount. The rule of thumb.



And it required all that arguing to say, 'A stock MS3 motor cannot make 465+ rwhp at 20 psi.' A nicely screwed together combo could, but not a stock setup. The stock parts could be strong enough, but they're just not efficient enough, just like someone said earlier.
 
Last edited:
this is the longets argument over a dyno in the history of man, why dont you guys just accept the fact that EVERYTHING on the internet is true........lolz
 
Those last few posts are tiring to read...I understand WHY they are happening but YEESH make a new thread about using rule of thumbs and how to properly......ETC ETC.

ON TOPIC: THE MS3
I got a chance to look further into the cars setup and was able to find out that yes the car IS on the stock fuel setup and there have been NO modifications to it other than what's been advertised.
 
I specifically said I used 100 hp. The exact quote was, "I had to use 100 hp, a 1.6 liter displacement and a VE of 0.75 to get an engine weak enough." I used 100 hp in both methods, the Garrett method (which you stated worked and staked your position on while lambasting my understanding of it earlier), and the "rule of thumb." The goal power in both was 400 hp. So, the answer is indeed correct, only your understanding of the methods is "wrong."

Anyone who remembers one iota of high school chemistry and algebra (you know, math that is proven to work) would likely remember the Ideal Gas Law. A simple little equation that reads, "PV=nRT." Air isn't an ideal gas, but at the relatively low levels of change we're dealing with, we can ASSUME it behaves as one for simplification.

Now, the average high school algebra student can probably tell you that when you're changing one side of the equation, something on the other side has to change as well to maintain equality. Math that works, right?

In this case, we'll change the P (pressure) while leaving the V (volume, in this case displacement) constant. On the other side we'll leave the T (Temperature) constant as well, though in real life that will change and, once again, is the efficiency of the system. The R (Gas Constant) also remains the same since we're just talking about plain ol' air and not replacing it with some exotic substance. And that leaves us with what?

Here is the answer - it leaves us with the ratio of the change in pressure being equal to ratio of the change in number of moles of the gas. Since the number of moles directly relates to the mass, and the change in mass is what produces a change in power, what we end up with is, "Doubling the absolute pressure doubles the power." "Tripling the absolute pressure triples the power." Math that is proven to work?

It's that simple. And by the way, that's EXACTLY What the Garret mathematics are saying, except that they're running the necessary airmass through the equation as well.

And since a naturally aspirated motor makes it's power at an absolute pressure of 14.7 psia at STP, it stands to reason that every time you multiply that, you can multiply the power by the same amount. The rule of thumb.



And it required all that arguing to say, 'A stock MS3 motor cannot make 465+ rwhp at 20 psi.' A nicely screwed together combo could, but not a stock setup. The stock parts could be strong enough, but they're just not efficient enough, just like someone said earlier.

What is your level of education exactly? I recall hanging a BSAE diploma on my wall many years ago; after reviewing your posts it seems you have far to go to reach that level, much less to have the understanding I do in this regard. But I am no longer interested in what you think is the correct answer; your rationale is tedious. Not because it is difficult to follow, but because it is untrained and you still have not picked up on the fundamentals. Just keep at it and I'm sure it will all come together for you.

Now as for this topic and as I originally stated, the engineers that designed the structural components absolutely put in a margin of safety that is at least 1.5 times limit load. And from a fatigue standpoint the static margins are probably higher on the internal components stressed by heat and pressure. I don't really see there being a structural issue with the engine, unless the tune is incorrect, of course. (wink)

I see no reason to doubt the results. I do think the engine would need a frequent rebuild schedule at that power (with all stock structural components).

Also I think the loading on the dyno is smoother than that seen at a track or on the street. So there are not sudden changes in AFR or loading that can stress the driveline excessively and that may strain the fuel systems dynamic response to those changes. Just a thought.
 
direct quote from CP-e:

411whp1.JPG



cp-e XCel intake
cp-e catted downpipe
cp-e catback
DNP exhaust manifold
CP Pistons .020 over
Pauter Rods 9.1:1
cp-e DeltaCore FMIC
cp-e engine mount
gt3076R @ 21psi
Greddy catch can
cp-e Standback V2
cp-e HPFPump <----- Woops! Forgot that one


I've been speaking with the owner of the car over the past few days, and he said he absolutely can't wait for it to dry up down in Florida so he can really beat on it. But he did say that the car is an animal, and looking at the dyno graph I don't doubt him. These are exciting times for the Mazdaspeeds!
 
The a:f for that "yellow" (411 hp) pull is pretty frighteningly lean... Pistons aren't long for this world in a motor with that kind of specific power at 14:1.

And guys, I apologize for keeping the argument going.
 
!!! Take It To The Track !!! If He Runs Between 11.5 And 11.8 He Has That Much Hp. That Is All There Is To It. End Of Discussion.
 
Last edited:
i just spoke with the service manager at my dealership and he's coool with me adding a FMIC, forge BPV and any other products thats going to make the car perform eefficiently and preserve the motor.

so im ive been reading alot on upgrades.

if someone can tell me if this is what the general consensus has seen as the best quality mods brands

these are the mods i will start with

-Cobb FMIC
-Forge BPV or is there a BOV thats just as good as the Forge BPV?(i would like alittle more sound but i want was best for my car)
-TRZ motor mount
-Apexcone H7 HID kit
-mazdaspeed CAI (are there better gains with the mazspd CAI than the Cobb intake?)

ive made this same post in three different threads since im not seeing alot of activity
 
the forge is certainly the LOUDEST bpv....i dont like the sound though. PPSHHH CHING! I had been running my HKS in VTA and i thought it ran pretty well...until i went back to recirc and it was soo much smoother. My suggestion is just run recirc right away. You might wait and get the FMIC first, it will probably make your bpv a lot louder (it did for me). Also it looks like you dont have an intake yet...that will make the stock one pretty loud. Either way I would hold off on bpv till a bit later is what im getting at.

As far as motor mounts... CS inserts are good if you dont want it vibrating the car any more than stock. My personal favorite is the SU mount. TRZ poly was a bit too stiff for me. It does not feel any stiffer than the SU mount, but it sure did vibrate a lot more.

hope this helps
 
Back