P5 NA Build - Target 175whp

[niky]

Damnit... 626 manifold must be making something if you're making that much.

From near as I can figure, you're 20 hp to 30 hp above me... when we dyno the JDM FSZE, we'll see how much more hp the FSZE compression really makes versus the Asian/Aussie compression... I'm betting about 10 hp. That still leaves 10-20 hp... but that's still not fine-tuned, right?

I'd like to know how you did the 626 manifold. I've got three manifolds on the floor at the shop (borrowed from a friend). One FSDE, one FSZE (resonator box is the only difference) and one 626. The 626 is about three or four inches short of the VICS long runners, should be good for mid-to-high rpms. Depending on where you end at, your power gains should prove that it's a good idea even for NA.

 

[xelderx]

I'm looking forward to further improvements from you. You're about 15whp ahead of my last dyno. I'll be back on the dyno in a few weeks with a new ECU and exhaust so hopefully I can knock a few more HP off my deficiet.

 

[jimmysuite]

I'm only down on you in terms of compression... is it the twiggies, you think?

What does the stock FSDE do on the Mustang, anyone know?

Cams and standalone. Probably ~100whp or less

baseline, so dyno tuning should net some more ponies, no?

Hopefully! still think 160 is within reach.

Jimmy,
Do you mind giving us a recap on your current mods?

Twiggy cams
SRI
MicroTech EMS
PnP head
Coated JDM 10:4 pistons
Over sized valves (1mm)
Titanium retainers
stiffer valve springs
626 manifold with thermal spacer
Thunder header
MAM midpipe with highflow cat
Racing beat Catback
9lb flywheel
welded MSP differential
spec stage two clutch
innovate LC-1
RR racing under drive crank pully

Soon: medival lightweight pullies

I think you're motor has some serious potential jimmy....next port of call for my money would be revisiting that thunder shorty header....and going for something a little more useful to you. I doubt balance is affecting power....the engine would be shaking itself to s*** if it was a balance issue.....sounds like a flow issue to me.

Get yourself a set of custom pipes made up (4-1, merge collector), tuned length (dial them in for about 7000 to 7250 rpm), and you're likely to see more than a handful of extra ponies.

get some decent (correct) cam gears made up and dial the twiggies in for maximum power...then spin the motor to 7500 and see what you get.

no i dont think it was worth your while opening up your motor just for JDM pistons, but then again, JDM pistons are not that much higher compression for the australian spec motor - but probably worth while for the lower compression american motor...next time you get an itch to open the motor though, custom pistons (about 11.5:1), with a bigger, raised wrist pin, and SR20 rods modified to suit.

But good work mate. Can't wait to see what you squeeze out if it when you finish the tuning off and let it loose....take it to the drag strip damnit!

Will hopefully be taking the car to the track soon. I'm already making plans to shoot for the 100whp/L

but that's still not fine-tuned, right?

I'd like to know how you did the 626 manifold.

Just rough road tune. no dyno tuning yet. I did do some light PnP where the runners meet the head. but just slapped on the 626 mani with the nsn thermal spacer.

 

[MakeMeGoFast]

Will hopefully be taking the car to the track soon. I'm already making plans to shoot for the 100whp/L

Work the bottom end, up the compression a bit, and the red line. I'm not seeing a problem........lol

 

[808MP5]

very nice numbers... jimmy
i still need to dyno my car but i don't think im anywhere near 140+ maybe in the low 120's
i want to go the high compression route but still undecided if its worth it

 

[niky]

1mm oversized valves? Seriously? Was looking at those... just not within the build budget yet. If I open up the block for high comp, I'll look at doing that. Seems Integral Stage IIs are a bit too aggressive for what I have now, I actually lost a little torque. Am looking at getting whoever else is going for cams to get a set of Stage Is, then we can mix and match both sets.

Thunder headers = +4 hp peak over a comparable 4-2-1, -5 hp midrange.

Yep, I'm betting you can hit 160 (or more if you change dynos... ) with good tuning, on that set-up. You've got a very complete build.

 

[LordWorm]

1mm oversized valves? Seriously? Was looking at those... just not within the build budget yet. If I open up the block for high comp, I'll look at doing that. Seems Integral Stage IIs are a bit too aggressive for what I have now, I actually lost a little torque. Am looking at getting whoever else is going for cams to get a set of Stage Is, then we can mix and match both sets.

Thunder headers = +4 hp peak over a comparable 4-2-1, -5 hp midrange.

Yep, I'm betting you can hit 160 (or more if you change dynos... ) with good tuning, on that set-up. You've got a very complete build.

who cares if you lost a little torque? bigger cams (that is, more duration, bigger overlap etc), with the mods to compliment them (HC pistons, a correctly designed set of headers and a decent, possibly custom, intake manifold - oh and BUTTLOADS of head work) will mean that whilst you've lost a little torque, you can make a STACK more peak power.

Jimmy: i think the biggest problem in your build at the moment is the header. see if you can find some Autoexe headers - they seem to be pretty close on to right for a 4-2-1 design...or if you are feeling a little saucey, get out your wallet and get someone to build you a set of tuned length pipes with a merge style collector....there are still gains to be had...and 175hp without opening the motor again is a distinct possibility if you play your cards right.

to get the 100hp/L you're going to have to go to a whole new level of crazy. I've got the "master plan" on my desk in front of me right now, and if you are deadly serious about it, i can give you some gentle nudges in the right direction You're going to have to build it for more revs though...no 2 ways about it. 110% max VE (which occurs at peak torque) is about the most you can expect out of a NA motor, and to get there you have to work the engine hard. 115% is about the absolute limit, but you're talking formula 1 level budgets to get to that.....

The more RPM you can get (assuming the rest of the system can flow air/exhaust at high RPM), the more swept volume you have, and the lower the required VE to achieve your goal.

Not trying to scare you out of it...just trying to forewarn you of the beast you plan to build

 

[MakeMeGoFast]

There is always locating an AWR header, but I think the AutoEXE style can be had for pretty cheap. A few more things and 175 should be a very attainable goal.

 

[LordWorm]

There is always locating an AWR header, but I think the AutoEXE style can be had for pretty cheap. A few more things and 175 should be a very attainable goal.

autoexe is also a superior design.

 

[jamesk]

do you got the stock rods in the motor jimmy?

 

[TWISFM]

do we have a video yet or n e thing good like that?

 

[jimmysuite]

do you got the stock rods in the motor jimmy?

yes

do we have a video yet or n e thing good like that?

soon!

 

[niky]

From jimmy's dyno and what we've seen for an FS-ZE re-mapped on a Unichip at stock rev-limit (6500 rpm), the high comp pistons are apparently good for 5-10 hp everywhere, so yeah, high-comp is on my list, too. That might make up for the loss of torque. Big issue is on track, as XelderX has talked about before... since your 1-2 shift drops you so low, you don't really want to lose that much.

I wouldn't mind losing just 5 hp at low rpms... but 10 hp is a bit much. Still making more than stock, but not as much as before below 4000.

Waiting for updates. This'll be fun.

 

[TurfBurn]

Thanks guys, here is the proof. I have a mod list at work so I'll copy & paste that tomorrow if I get time. Like I said before I'm happy with the build but in hindsight I dont think it was worth it to open the motor up just for the 10.4 pistons. (LW owes me an 'I told you so'!)

I want to get some adjustable cam gears made up so i can find the best cam setting for this car. It looks like i was a bit rich near redline and I think the timing is still well on the safe side.

The graph is kind of hard to read. Tq on the left (line that looks like a frown), AFR on the right (the lowest line) Speed on the bottom (47-92mph) hp curve is the one that starts in the middle of the left and flattens at the top right. Did one pull in fourth and one in third. The pull in third is shown. My car couldn't make it to redline in fourth (made it to ~135mph and was speeding up very slowly from there so he stopped the pull) hp numbers were identical

Looks like about 10% or better of your fall off is due to AFR actually. If I had done a better job on the tune at the high rpm's you probably would have picked up another 5 horse at least if not over 7 more. The timing is also conservative as I only ran you to about 39 degrees max i think and at redline you could probably run into mid 40's without issue (I've even seen it pushed into the 50's by some). I think "pushing it" you could easily pull about 10-15 horse yet when optimized. The J&S would help get you there as well I think. Overall though the curves are smooth, the AFR drop is what hurt you the most on that dyno. Until the AFR's are solved I don't think you can evaluate the breathing of the engine all that well yet.

 

[TurfBurn]

Mustangs read a solid 10-15% conservative relative to a dynojet, so you could already say the car is pushing 160-165 at the ground. With some re-tuning and a dyno-jet pull you probably are already at or within ~7 horse of 175 whp.

 

[niky]

I don't trust SAE correction factors, though... but yes, with a little more fine-tuning (better if done on the dyno), you could gain a lot more at high rpms...

I'd love to see where you end up after the final tune.

 

[Hambino]

What valves are you running? I thought I was the only one who's run over-sized valves on a street protege.

 

[jimmysuite]

I am using the ones from supertech/crossover.

 

[Hambino]

I am using the ones from supertech/crossover.

Specs? I wasn't aware that they made valves for the 3rd gen. I used Ferrera.

 

[jimmysuite]

http://*************.com/mazdaspeed4.htm