Wide Open Throttle Solution

[APEXistud]

I read the word "dongle" and couldn't help but laugh. It sounds like some reproductive organ.

 

[chdesign]

OK Keith here is my question to you.....I'm not going back FI but I am staying with my high compression so woudl the Apex-i S-AFC work in the open loop mode in our cars or the mode where it reads the sensors? From reading this thread its seems that it would. If you could let me in on yoru insite on that I would apriciate it and I'm sure alot of other people woudl too.

 

[Kooldino]

Being what Keith learned about open loop vs closed loop in our cars...would it actually be FASTER if we didn't FLOOR it, but put the throttle down 90% of the way? I'm talking about on a stock car here...

 

[mp3rican007]

I am not going to try and fool the emanage. what I mean by installing 440cc injectors and telling the emanage that i have 400cc injectors is just that. The emanage will give fuel to the injectors as if they were 400cc, so in actuality the 440cc injectors would be running lean. With the emanage then I can give those 440cc injectors the fuel that is needed to run thats the benefit of the emanage. Emanage can support injectors 150% bigger than stock on given vehicle. The fmu gives fuel under boost but i dont want to go with a 12:1 fmu its not good for motor, if that thing goes bad under boost than say bye bye

 

[Stou]

Keith, I have read in another thread that you already sent the ECU modifcation to Begi kit owners.

Do you think this modification can work with a setup like mine, extras injectors instead of FMU?

.......any more info on that ECU modification??? (bow)

 

[MazdaT]

The ecu always reads the sensors. Closed loop just means that it is applying a correction based off of the o2 senors value (lean or rich). Think of it this way, mazda engineers (or ford, who knows now) map the entire engine with the proper fuel and timing maps based on the input of the mass air sensor and the throttle positions sensor. Then they apply a correction to those maps according to intake air temp, coolant temp, and battery voltage. Now they have a smooth running engine with excellent drivability. However it gets about 14 miles per gallon, and can't pass an emmissions test. So the engineers use the o2 sensors (primarly the 1st sensor, the second has other purposes) to control the air fuel ratio during part throttle. They apply a target air fuel ratio, like 14.7 to 1. So during part throttle (closed loop) the ecu corrects the air fuel ratio to try to achive 14.7 (or what ever is programmed). This is a very simplified description of how it works, but hopefully it will clear up some confusion.

To answer your question about the safc, yes the safc will work to trim the air fuel ratio under wot conditions. I have a safc on my pr5 with an intake and it works just fine. When I lean out the car, I see it get leaner on the wide band, when I richen the car I see it richen up too. The safc will not work during closed loop, the stock ecu just corrects out whatever you change.

Jeff

so woudl the Apex-i S-AFC work in the open loop mode in our cars or the mode where it reads the sensors?

 

[Keith@FP]

To add to that, it takes more than just WOT to go open loop. It's based upon the ECU's calculation of load. Below a certain RPM, you're almost always closed loop.

mp3rican007 (don't you people have names?), what you're imagining won't work. The problem is the Jeckyll and Hyde behaviour of the ECU in the two modes. If you tune for one, the other will be way off.

Our sensor spoof should work just fine with extra injectors. The idea is to keep the ECU from realizing that it's running richer than it wants to be. We've only sent out one so far, as we're waiting for a few more of the parts we need.

Keith

 

[big_ben]

What do you estimate the price of this "spoof" to be? I plan on makeing my MP3 a monster after I rebuild the bottom end since the lack of motor oil chewed up all my bearings. And I thought that the motor would run good without oil like in those slick50 commercials.

 

[Keith@FP]

Don't know yet, and I'm not even going to guess - because if I do, you'll all take that as the official gospel price and be upset if it's different.

Less than $1000, I can guarantee that Quite a bit less.

Keith

 

[big_ben]

I understand what you mean by people taking that as gospel, but that's why I said an estimate. I too hate it when you tell people that something is going to be like $300, then when you actually start selling the product and for some reason the price goes up to $350, then they start bitching saying "you said $300, you are ripping me off". People like that just want get everything but pay for nothing. Anyways, enough ranting for me. Just tell me it will be below $600 and I'll be happy. Also, what will this "spoof" be able to do. Will it be able to intercept and alter more than just the fueling signals. Like will we be able to alter the timing with the much cheaper timing control devices that are available to other common cars like civics? That would be really cool.

 

[MazdaT]

You are fooling the emanage. I don't understand why you don't think you are. The emanage has a setup table that allows you to tell it what size injectors you are running, and what size injectors your car came with stock. When you apply the data the software comes up with a correction factor that corrects the larger injectors. This correction allows you to have a base line, so your map could be at all zeros, and your car would see the same amount of fuel it did with the stock injectors, which is what you want at start up, idle and part throttle. Then you can add however much fuel you need into the mass air correction map for your full throttle tuning. If you tell the emanage the wrong information (trying to fool it) it will throw off the it's correction factor. Then you will have to remove fuel at idle and part throttle, but you will not be able to change the start up map (the emanage can not adjust start up maps), you will then be 10% richer at cold start. 10% at cold start will damage your cats and may cause drivability problems in the winter. Just use it how it is ment to be used. It has the ability to control the 440cc injectors no probem. I've used it with stock size 275cc and added 550cc, and had perfect stock drivability and start up.

Jeff

I am not going to try and fool the emanage. what I mean by installing 440cc injectors and telling the emanage that i have 400cc injectors is just that. The emanage will give fuel to the injectors as if they were 400cc, so in actuality the 440cc injectors would be running lean. With the emanage then I can give those 440cc injectors the fuel that is needed to run thats the benefit of the emanage. Emanage can support injectors 150% bigger than stock on given vehicle. The fmu gives fuel under boost but i dont want to go with a 12:1 fmu its not good for motor, if that thing goes bad under boost than say bye bye

 

[Keith@FP]

Let me clarify. We have come up with a way to prevent the ECU from seeing just how rich the car is running when you are dumping in additional fuel. It's non-adjustable, meaning we set it before we ship it. This prevents us from getting lots of support calls and you from screwing up the settings Besides, there's only one correct way to adjust it. It will not be very expensive. Less than $600, yes.

We are also looking at different solutions that should be more fully integrated with the ECU. Those are further down the line, and I can't even guess at the cost as I don't know what form they will take.

Keith

 

[MazdaT]

To add to that, it takes more than just WOT to go open loop. It's based upon the ECU's calculation of load. Below a certain RPM, you're almost always closed loop.
Keith

Your right, even if you go wot at low rpm it will still stay in closed loop until it hits whatever rpm. As far as load, if you map tps voltage and mass air voltage, you can figure out the load percentage. I've been mapping the voltages and creating a table so I can figure out the open/closed loop threshold. I'll post my findings when I figure it all out, and can prove it over and over again.

Jeff

 

[big_ben]

First of all, MazdaT, you sound like you have some really good technical knowledge about cars. Keep posting this good stuff.

And as for this:

We are also looking at different solutions that should be more fully integrated with the ECU. Those are further down the line, and I can't even guess at the cost as I don't know what form they will take.

This makes me think you guys will have similar setups as the Link for the Miatas. Am I getting warmer? That will be awesome if we will be able to get something similar to the link and be able to punch in settings that you guys have already figured out. Keep up the good work!

 

[Stou]

We have come up with a way to prevent the ECU from seeing just how rich the car is running when you are dumping in additional fuel. It's non-adjustable, meaning we set it before we ship it

Is that mean this is only good for Begi kit owners? OR it's a kind of universal unit

Also, I tought that the way to correct the rich situation is to let the ECU think that there's no need to run rich. So I don't understand this:

prevent the ECU from seeing just how rich the car is running

I think I'm getting more and more

 

[PortCityMP3]

We've only sent out one so far, as we're waiting for a few more of the parts we need.

Keith

Hopefully I get it Mon. or Tues and get it put on I'll keep ya posted.

 

[Keith@FP]

Adding extra fuel when the ECU is open loop is easy. The ECU is highly predicable in those situations and won't react to the fact that A/F ratios are 12:1.

When the ECU is closed loop, it sees those A/F ratios and takes steps to correct it. So there are several options:
- reprogram the ECU so that it realises 12:1 is good.
- force the ECU to go open loop on demand
- don't let the ECU see those A/F ratios so it thinks everything is fine in the world.

We've got a solution for number 3, but number 1 is the ideal situation.

Keith

 

[1sty]

Any ETAs for the rest of the kit owners on this? ANd will it solve my cars mysterious problem of running lean at idle?

 

[chdesign]

so in closed loop a S-AFC wont' work but in open loop it will? This is kinda weird since from what I understand on this thread in open loop it ignors teh inputs from the sensors but in closed loop it reads them.....could you please clarify this Keith as to which mode teh S-AFC would most likely work in for just modifying the air flow signal.

 

[Keith@FP]

The fix won't do anything outside of boost, as at that point you should have a "normal" Protege as far as the ECU is concerned.

I don't know much about the S-AFC. I've never used one. But the ECU never ignores the mass air flow sensor. It can't.

Keith