what order to get these items *feedback please*

[Orange Boca MSP]

wassup
ok here it is..i wanna get a few things...all of joes stuff-130,the injen cai-200,apex d/p-300,all the gauges i need/want(3 pod pillar,autometer boost,a/f,and voltmeter)-180,hks type 1 tt-approx 100 w/ harness n shipped...by next week i will have 450 and by mid august i will be able to have everything i want..the thing is i have this 450 here (very soon) and i want to start gettin sum of this stuff and i am not sure of which stuff i should get now and what i should wait on...so i would like to know what to order at the same times to compliment each other...ok thanx a lot in advance and sorry for the long post...all help is appreciated
thanx again

 

[ForceFed]

Well cosidering my track times tonight(14.3@98)I would go with a boost controller,Apex D/P,And a boost gauge ,as this is what I have to run these times!
My .02 cents,
Matt

 

[pluto316]

High performance muffler bearings, you need them!

 

[t3ase]

High performance muffler bearings, you need them!

High performance what?

 

[pluto316]

 

[jred321]

i would say intake, boost controller and gauges first and keep boost at a little over stock. the fpr kit i wouldn't get yet because the reflash that is supposedly coming might make it not worth while, and the fcd you won't need yet since you shouldn't be boosting enough to push that much air through. downpipe and rest of exhaust should be soon after, then turn the boost up a little more. make sure the gauges you get are accurate, i.e. not get the blinking light autometer a/f gauge and get one that actually displays voltage since the blinking lights don't tell you any real information. also, i would pass on the voltage meter because there are way more important gauges to get that actually matter. if your voltage meter reads low, the worst that will happen is your car won't start or something else silly. there are other gauges that can tell you you are about to melt engine parts or kill other things. i would definately get an oil pressure and egt gauge way before a voltmeter, you have a warning light anyways for the battery. also save some money and don't get the turbo timer, it's far from a necessary item if you just let your car idle for a little after driving it, because that is all it does anyways.

 

[Kenetix]

Personally I think one of the last things on the list should be the intake. The stock airbox holds up very well on its own with increased boost.

 

[kwiktsi]

Personally I think one of the last things on the list should be the intake. The stock airbox holds up very well on its own with increased boost.

Ahh yes, you should know by now- there will be 50,000 different "have to get" items from people running high 14's ..

Stock airbox with a K&N drop in, FPR kit, FCD, MBC set to 10-11 psi and a 3" off the stock DP back I ran 14.2@100 with a lousy 60' time. The 100 mph trap is what shows the cars power at that stage. If you want to do it on a budget- K&N drop in, DP, MBC (or any type of boost control), FPR, FCD (yes, you will need it at anything over about 9 psi- don't believe me?- wait until it gets colder out ), boost gauge and an AF gauge. I don't know why people say the autometer's don't work. If you know what you are looking at, they work fine. I have tuned many low 11 second cars using just that. Yes, the other gauges are nice to have and more accurate (EGT, wideband O2, etc.), but for the cost at your level of mods, they are 100% unecessary. Hell, even a regular O2 gauge isn't needed as it has been proven that there is more than enough fuel for the stock turbo at ANY psi.. Be careful what information you take seriously and what you don't. Make sure the advice you follow is proven . There is a LOT of misinformation here so be careful.. A lot of people here know how to bolt on parts and spend $$$, but only a few know how to go fast .
Joe

 

[jred321]

...boost gauge and an AF gauge. I don't know why people say the autometer's don't work. If you know what you are looking at, they work fine.

the last sentence is the key, as most people don't know what they are looking at. how rich is 1 blinky light green? they do tell you the right information, but since every car is slightly different with 02 voltages and what they mean, without knowing what each blinky light is calibrated to mean it really isn't telling you anything other than what it says is rich or stoich, which can be slightly different with each car.
true, there are many different ways to go, but i was offering suggestions with longevity of the motor, future mods and whatnot in mind. i like doing things on the safe side. you don't want to just go changing things without knowing what you're doing, and since nobody has really run a lot of mods for any real amount of time (the car has only been out for like 6 months) being safe is always best. as for the filter, my car has 120 miles on it, so i obviously haven't tested anything yet, but trust what joe says, i was wrong. until more information comes out on the limits of the systems, i am goign to be very safe with my modding. i would rather be able to monitor everything before turning up the boost than just turn up the boost and hope things don't blow up. i would love a datalogger for this car, but that probably won't happen. but true, take everything with a grain of salt, and if it has been done once you can do it again, so go whichever path you choose, but really you should get all of your mods
edit: oh yea, i remembered one of the reasons i'm being so conservative is because i like the safe feeling of the warranty, i'm sick of paying for a broken car so i don't want to void this (yet), and pretty much the dealer will say you void it if you put an mbc on and turn up the boost, although you will obviously get some great performance gains.

 

[KyRaceFan]

i wouldnt buy a/f and volt, id get boost, oil pressure, and water temp or egt
A/F are only as accurate as the o2 sensor theyre hooked to, and without paying alot for widebands all the time, its not a good mod..
Oil pressure gauges can show an immediate problem if you lose pressure, especially while running more boost.
Volt, well youre gonna know if your alternator goes without a gauge...
EGT- Can help tune a car, higher means leaner, lower means richer. Thats a generalization, and youd want more research.

joes fpr, mbc, and fcd are also good choices. Having someone locally custom fab a D/P and exhaust will be cheaper than buying them online, with similar results.

 

[kwiktsi]

i wouldnt buy a/f and volt, id get boost, oil pressure, and water temp or egt
A/F are only as accurate as the o2 sensor theyre hooked to, and without paying alot for widebands all the time, its not a good mod..
Oil pressure gauges can show an immediate problem if you lose pressure, especially while running more boost.
Volt, well youre gonna know if your alternator goes without a gauge...
EGT- Can help tune a car, higher means leaner, lower means richer. Thats a generalization, and youd want more research.

joes fpr, mbc, and fcd are also good choices. Having someone locally custom fab a D/P and exhaust will be cheaper than buying them online, with similar results.

As mentioned, at the level most are going to mod to here- an AF gauge is not really necessary- we know the limits of the stock fuel system now. If you were going to put $$$ into larger turbos, built motors, ported heads, blah blah, then spend the $$ on the right monitoring equiptment- wideband and EGT. But for most here nothing will be necessary for monitoring AF, but a regualr autometer AF gauge can prove useful for monitoring- if your car runs at XX light all the time and then one day it drops to the red
(fuel filter clogs or something)- the gauge may save your motor . You are right about the EGT readings, however- Higher can also mean timing is too retarded and lower can mean too much advance which can lead to detonation and damage- it is not goot just to try to figure out AF from an EGT- an EGT and wideband together are a kick ass combo though . Just not necessary for most here. As for an oil pressure gauge- I never really bother- there is no reason you should have an oil pressure issue with a factory built motor- if you lose pressure completely, the light will come on. *If* anything happens and makes it lose pressure or if the pressure drops- the damage is already done and the gauge will not save you . Now if you build your own motor and you have machined the crank, etc. it is good to make sure pressure is good, but on a stock motor- it is a waste IMHO.

Hell, my buddies 1700 hp TT small block doesn't even run an oil filter!! Like he said- if there is anything in there big enough to do damage- it is because it came from something that is already damaged anyway. His motor does get torn down once a year though and inspected..
Joe

 

[jred321]

just so i know, what are the limits of the stock fuel system? and how was this figured out? is there a way to monitor duty cycle of the injectors, or is this just from wideband readings at the dyno?

 

[kwiktsi]

just so i know, what are the limits of the stock fuel system? and how was this figured out? is there a way to monitor duty cycle of the injectors, or is this just from wideband readings at the dyno?

I have never run lean on the stock fuel system with the stock turbo- even at 20 psi. As for how I know- good old fashioned experience .. Between monitoring plugs, AF (o2 voltage), and even the wideband readings on the dyno- there was no sign of a lean condition anywhere in the power band.
Joe

 

[KyRaceFan]

Theres no way to monitor duty cycles without a fuel computer, dyno tuning with a wideband will show you what a/f ratios your hitting, but you cant change them without a fuel computer.

Unfortunately, S-afcs wont wire up to our car, people have been inqurining about greddy's emanage, and others to test compatibility.

Thanks once again to joe.. hes too smart for his own good!

 

[kwiktsi]

what a/f ratios your hitting, but you cant change them without a fuel computer.

Thanks once again to joe.. hes too smart for his own good!

Well, kind of can't change them without a computer . MY FPR kit does lean it out a bit. You can richen the mixture accross the board with an adjustable regulator or lean it with my FP Reduction kir or similar setup or an adjustable regulator. It is a crude method, but effective- and the ECU won't know any better- so it won't freak out on you like if you try to install an AFC.. The nice thing about my FPR kit though is it only leans it out under boost- cruise and idle remain stock. If you lean it with less fuel pressure via an adjustable reg., it will lean it out through the entire range. This car is so f*cking impossible to tune with modern methods that you have to go "old school" for tuning ...
Joe

 

[KyRaceFan]

well true true.... by the way.. have you shipped my FPR yet? I need it maaan.. modding your car is like crack.. once you start, you cant stop...

 

[kwiktsi]

well true true.... by the way.. have you shipped my FPR yet? I need it maaan.. modding your car is like crack.. once you start, you cant stop...

PM me with the order info and I'll let you know.
Joe

 

[jred321]

thanks for the info. i just asked because i was on an sr20 forum and someone was pushing over 300 whp on the dyno, and as far as everything looked he was still rich (stock 280cc injectors i think, it was a bb det), but someone computed his injector duty cycle (Injector Size = (Engine HP (Flywheel)) x (BSFC)/(# of injectors) x (Duty Cycle), work backwards (taken from the Holley site) and found that his run at 18 psi or so had maxed out his injectors, and beyond that his injectors went static, dumping fuel in all the time, which is why it looked rich still. he kept turning up the boost and getting more power (i think his last run was at 21psi or something), and wouldn't believe people when they told him his injectors would have to be running over a 110% duty cycle for this to be possible and that his injectors were going static. this (the fact that he was "rich") was supported by his two other friends who are respected members of the board and actually are running a garage, and they wouldn't believe that the injectors were static either. i don't doubt what you're saying about being rich, i just know that if i do things with my car i'm not going to just trust someone else's experience, i'll use it as guidance but make my own choices. either way, thanks for the info.
[/thread highjack]

 

[kwiktsi]

thanks for the info. i just asked because i was on an sr20 forum and someone was pushing over 300 whp on the dyno, and as far as everything looked he was still rich (stock 280cc injectors i think, it was a bb det), but someone computed his injector duty cycle (Injector Size = (Engine HP (Flywheel)) x (BSFC)/(# of injectors) x (Duty Cycle), work backwards (taken from the Holley site) and found that his run at 18 psi or so had maxed out his injectors, and beyond that his injectors went static, dumping fuel in all the time, which is why it looked rich still. he kept turning up the boost and getting more power (i think his last run was at 21psi or something), and wouldn't believe people when they told him his injectors would have to be running over a 110% duty cycle for this to be possible and that his injectors were going static. this (the fact that he was "rich") was supported by his two other friends who are respected members of the board and actually are running a garage, and they wouldn't believe that the injectors were static either. i don't doubt what you're saying about being rich, i just know that if i do things with my car i'm not going to just trust someone else's experience, i'll use it as guidance but make my own choices. either way, thanks for the info.
[/thread highjack]

Funny- you have a car that cannot be tuned by electronic methods and needs to be done via mechanical (fuel pressure) methods and the injectors going static in this case is bad how? Man you guys have a lot to learn .. Some of the fastest turbo buick street cars have the chips programed so the injectors go static at WOT so they can just tune via fuel pressure. Again, it is a crude method but when you have no other method of tuning, it is a blessing in disguise. You just have to know how to work with what you have. Yeah, his injectors went static, but it made the #'s and didn't lean out. Where is the bad news ? As long as you don't need more than the injector could possibly flow, there is no need to upgrade. Actually, you get better atomization (more power) from a smaller injector maxed out than from a larger one turned down. To each his own
Joe.

 

[jred321]

i would rather have the ability to tune to ~90% duty cycle and stay safe and not use crude methods, but whatever works.