Help me spend $400

[firefly]

Current system: Alpine 7894, Infinity 5752cf + 652i in a Protege5

Problem: System lacks overall smoothness and highs are very harsh. If I turn down treble on the HU then the sound lacks detail.

Should I change my speakers? Lots of ppl are telling me that's the problem with these Infinity. My budget is $400 for now and I might invest more later next year. I prefer a warm and mellow sound with detail (but not harsh) highs.

 

[Gro Harlem]

get a 4 way amp....and a equalizer........problem solved

 

[jrodhotrod]

take that 400 and invest it in a really good set of components for the front and leave the rears for now. If I remember right that Alpine deck pushes a lot of power (I was looking at that one but ended up with the non-powered 7995). Look at JL Audio, MB Quart, Diamond, and I am sure a lot of the other gurus can get you some other names. I have JL Audio XR 6.5" components in the front doors of my P5 and I love them.

 

[1sty]

Disable MX and set the treble center frequency to 17K then turn it down 2 notches. This will help. Also if that unit has BBE turn it off and turn off loudness. DON"T F WITH THE TIME CORRECTION UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR DOING.

If your looking for new speakers Get the Jl audio VR 6.5" componenets, $300 MSRP. They use a soft dome silk tweeter which is very mild and smooth. Plus its small enough for te stock location. Since you don't have an amp I wouldn't bother with the XRs.

Actualy its not totaly the system. Are cars have a bad resonance at 6.3K off the glass. Its very nasty. but these steps will help.

An Eq won't help unless its a 1/3 octive.

 

[firefly]

That Alpine HU pumps out 60W/27W rms. Not really a lot of power but it's one of the most powerful internal amp out there.

I'm thinking about Focal Polyglass 165V as well. But I'm afraid even if the Alpine really put out 27W it's still underpower for the Focals.

Just another idea: Get the 165V and a 2-ch amp to power them for now. Get a sub later and use the same 2-ch amp...and move the 165V back to HU amp. Since they'll be crossovered to do highs only I assume it won't take much power and the HU amp should be able to handle it. Feasible?

 

[1sty]

You will need an external amplifier for any Focal otherwise distortion will nuke them.

I know that alpine well. You mentioned you didn't like the sound you had. Did you try the things I advised or do you just want new speakers?

Don't buy focal on the internet, there are several companies making imatations and selling them as focals. If you get a good discount there fake, its that simple. Sounddomain is the only internet retailer I'd trust to get the real thing.

 

[firefly]

Yes I did. Not to insult your suggestion as I'm really looking for help here...but with the settings you suggested it sounds like a $50 boombox. There are no dynamics to the bass...and the highs sounds muffed...like something is stuffed between the speakers and my ears.

You will need an external amplifier for any Focal

Even for the bottom Access/Polyflex line? What happens when they only do the mids/highs?

 

[1sty]

To get any real dynamics an external amplifier is needed in the first place. The MX is just a boosting circuit that will cuase premature distortion. If you had tha on the trebble will usualy drop significantly when its turned off. Focal Speakers are designed and built on the premise there customers are serious about sound. A head unit power a front stage even with the rear isn't serious, its basic upgrades.

How did it sound with just the MX off?
DId you play with the time correction at all?
Do you have infinity coaxles or components in the front?
That deck has build in crossovers, did you use them?
Did your car have the tweeters up by the mirrors?
Where is the croosover on the subs set and what kind of subs were they?

It is possible you have something out of phase.
Turn off the subs and fade the the front. Play something with good midbass. THen balance all the way left then to the right. If you get more bass output from the speakers with only one of the pair on then one of the speakers is out of phase. You'll need to swapp the + and - speaker wire on one of the speakers.

Then fade to the rear all the way and do the same thing for the rear speakers. Next balance to the left and fade between front and rear and listen again for a loss of bass when faded to 0.

Basicly with MX off your hearing the music as it was recorded to the best of your speakers ability. I never use MX or any other boost circuits

 

[firefly]

Ok...maybe there's a misunderstanding....but I don't have a sub now. Just 5752cf in the front doors and 652i in the rear door and they're both coaxials. Now to answer your question:

With MX off the highs sounded slightly better. By that I mean it's not as harsh. But the bass is very dull and lifeless. I can say that with MX off the bass sounds better with my stock Mazda HU powering the same Infinity speakers.

Nope. I had TC set to 40 front 25 back but I followed your advise and set them back to zero.

As mentioned...I have coax in all four doors.

Since I don't have a sub I had Sub-W disabled in the setup menu . So I don't see the crossover options at all.

I did the "out of phase" test when I put in my deck...and everything seems/sounds right. So it shouldn't be an out of phase problem.

Edit: Not sure if you're familiar with home audio stuff...but if you are I'm sure you heard of B&W speakers. That's the kind of sound I prefer: laid back but detail highs with fast, punchy, and clean bass. I'm running a pair of 805 at home for music and I love how they sound. That's what I'm trying achieve (or at least as close as possible) for my car.

 

[1sty]

Ok...maybe there's a misunderstanding....but I don't have a sub now. Just 5752cf in the front doors and 652i in the rear door and they're both coaxials. Now to answer your question:

With MX off the highs sounded slightly better. By that I mean it's not as harsh. But the bass is very dull and lifeless. I can say that with MX off the bass sounds better with my stock Mazda HU powering the same Infinity speakers.

Nope. I had TC set to 40 front 25 back but I followed your advise and set them back to zero.

As mentioned...I have coax in all four doors.

Since I don't have a sub I had Sub-W disabled in the setup menu . So I don't see the crossover options at all.

I did the "out of phase" test when I put in my deck...and everything seems/sounds right. So it shouldn't be an out of phase problem.

Edit: Not sure if you're familiar with home audio stuff...but if you are I'm sure you heard of B&W speakers. That's the kind of sound I prefer: laid back but detail highs with fast, punchy, and clean bass. I'm running a pair of 805 at home for music and I love how they sound. That's what I'm trying achieve (or at least as close as possible) for my car.

You seem to know enough to play with the time correction so go ahead and do that.

B&W thats a very funny coincidence, My company Might be becoming a reseller of B&W. To get the sound of an 805 in a car be prepared to spend about $10,000.

Midbass is the hardest thing to achieve in a car accurately. Plus if you look at the Protege on an EQ 163 HZ is dead. MX will help this but it does mess the highs. The cheapest way to get what your looking for is get a really good set of 6.5" componenets and amp the hell out of them. Focal with definitly give you the sound you want but you will needed a 100x2 rms amp to achieve the control and detail, not to metion $150 in dynamat to solid up the doors.

Match the rear speakers to the front and fade foward.

I have been on a mid bass mission for years and just can't get it. I have a 6.5" JL XR midbass in each door and a set of MB Quart 6.5" Q series and still its not enough. I had each at 75 watts rms and I had to dump the midbasses becuase the Qs needed more power. I run the Q's in kick panels.The best car I ever heard was the Sound in Motion Supra with 3 way focals all in kick panels and 3 10W6 subs but it still didn't match a 805 in accuracy. The install in that car would be about $20000.

 

[firefly]

And I thought home audio is expensive!

So a pair of Polyglass 165V will help. What about the amp? Any specific brand that's worth a listen while still keeping my budget in control?

What do you mean by match the rear speakers to the front? Like putting another set of 165V for the rear door location? Or you mean a sub that'll go along with the 165V front and leave the rear door alone?

I just love the way the 805 sounds. I'm running them with a Musical Fidelity A300 Dual Mono Amp. I know it's hard to achieve the same SQ in a car...and unlike my home setup there's no way I'll dump 6G on audio in a car.

 

[1sty]

Make sure the Tweeters of the speakers youget are the same for front and rear. I would use a JL 300/2 for the speakers. Do you have the tweeters up high or in the same place as the mid? I'd also add a single 10" sub to help fill in th low end. For clean even audio nothing more is needed in a P5.

 

[firefly]

Right now I have the tweeter in the same place as the mid. They're coaxials remember?

What is a better setup? To have speakers in all four doors or speakers in just front doors with a sub? I don't want to sacrifice too much space in the hatch, so if I can achieve 75% of the sound I can skip the sub. I'm not looking forward to set off alarms in the underground parking and I'm not going in a dB drag....clean and solid bass is all I'm looking for.

If four speakers is a better solution for me I need a 4-ch amp right?

 

[1sty]

The best set up i have seen is using a 4 channel amp and bridging it down to 2 channels to get the most power or using a JL 2 channel amp. JLs put out the same power at any impedance. Run the rears off the deck and fade to the front to keep distortion off the rears.

One of the largest misconceptions when it comes to car audio is that a sub is just a bass generator. Although this can be true, in a car the only thing that can reproduce acurate bass is a sub. Door speakers simply can't do it. Think about how rigidly the B&W cabinent is built now compare that to the doors. The doors are flimsy and full of holes not exactly a bass friendly mounting surface. When use properly the sub will sound like musical instrument.

Use JL Subs. A single 10 W3 will do nicely and will blend well or pond like a bastard, its up to you.

A bit of info, The President of the Rep company for B&W in this area had his sons Volvo worked on at my Tweeter. He chose the JL W3 subs and JL amps. Also he chose Focal Speakers.
He ran a JL 300/4 amp, a Jl 500/1 Amp and 2 JL 12W3's. CAR SOUNDED AWSOME!!!!!!!!!

I think With the Focals you want. A JL 500/5 Would be perfect.
I does:
100x2 for the fronts
25x2 for the rears
250x1 for the subs

I used this amp in a 2002 BMW M3 convertable. It also rocked.
Also use a JL 10W3 sub in a 1/2 cubic ft sealed box.

For the front door speakers, it ususaly pays off to play with the tweeter locations before mounting them to get the best stage height and imaging. We have a really low stock speaker so I think up higher would help, plus you can always run ambiant tweeters but you have to run new wires into the doors.

 

[firefly]

I see what you're saying. I guess I have to think about the rear fills and sub. But the front stage and an amp is definitely in order. I think I'll go with a 2-ch amp as it's the most flexible configuration. I can use it to power my fronts or bridge it to power a sub. And it's small enough to fit under the front seat in a P5. Like I said I would like to keep the trunk space open and with the 500/5 and a sub pretty much all the space will be taken.

However...with the said Focal and JL amp it'll bust my $400 piggy bank. The amp alone is $320....and the Focal is $230. Any cheaper way out?

Just curious...how much is a pair of 805 down there?

 

[1sty]

Signature or nautalis 805?

The JL amp will fit under the front seats easily.
The only reason I went right to the good stuff in my reccomendation was becuase of your listening tastes.
By the way the JL 300/2 is over $400, they simply don't distribute to anyone other then dealers.
With the amp whats the budget?

 

[firefly]

Nautalis 805...that's the one I have. Retails for $3000 CAD here...about $1900 US.

I got the $320 price from onlinecarstereo.com. I guess the markup is even greater in Canada.

I guess my max budget for now is $500-$600...for front stage and a 2-ch amp. I'm not going to any SQ competition...just to make my well trained ears more comfortable during my commute!

 

[1sty]

$600 CAD or USD?

 

[firefly]

US...can't do much with $600 CAD!

 

[1sty]

Want my Xtant X604

I think you may want to use a 4 channel and bridge it to get some real power to the fronts. I like the Alpine MRV-F340. For 2 channel MRV-T420.

You seem to already have your speakers chosen.