Curious: 16G replacement?

[TurfBurn]

I just figured I'd pose the question.. I know damn near every DSM'er ditches their T25 turbo and slaps on a 16G or larger and it is a direct bolt on for them. That means the flanges have to be compatible.. sooo... that would mean that in theory any of you can put a 16G right onto the MSP. I'm curious if anyone has actually tried it. You'd actually get more power from that mod in theory as it would move more CFM at the same PSI, and more efficiently, so better temps etc... but anyway... just posing a point.. don't know how feasible it is or not for any of you!

Later

Steve

 

[daedalus]

coming from owning a 1991 laser before this... i have been wondering the same thing ever since...

 

[sickspeed94]

(bump) for curiosity

 

[daedalus]

my only concern would be the step backwards in the turbo technology. Our t25's are ball bearing turbo's that have a more efficent design (I think so ???) so wouldnt the old design 16g's etc be less effecient? I mean they are not ball bearing right?

 

[STAR 80]

The T25 that was on 2nd gen DSM's were in fact Garret designed but produced by Mitsubishi. It was identical to the Garret other than the fact it was molded for a Mitsu foot plate not the Garret T25 style footplate. There are however many DSM/Garret adapter plates avail. that would allow you to mount any DSM foot plated turbos or even Garret T3 footplated turbos, that of couse would fit with the stocker MSP mani.

For a stock MSP manni the options would be limmited to the TD05 compressor housing (14B,16G-18G but some 18G's use the larger TD06) as anything else would be to large to fit. But thats not to say you could not easily mount a TD05 compressor based Mitsu turbo that could easliy support 400 hp.

Deadalus is right though our GT series turbo is years ahead of the 16G (aside from the current 16G found on the Evo VIII) or the Garret T series. But there are quite a selection of both families of turbos that would perform very well for us. But taken the fact of cost versus cost. It probly would be easier and cheaper to just modify the GT25 we have or go with the GT28 and its RS or 71 trim. Which the GT2871 by the way is the largest 28 that with still fit the stock MSP mani.

 

[TurfBurn]

I've got no complaints about an Evo III 16g pushing nearly 42lb's with roughly 70% efficiency. That's enough to push over 400 horse, and still spool beautifully. It may be an oldie, but it sure moves air well. And at 550 bucks for one, they are dirt cheap.

But it's too bad that the flanges are likely different, even if you can swap with an adapter plate. i'd guess a lot of piping ends up being a little off then.

 

[mazdaspeedpower]

WOW, some people know waayyy too much about this stuff. Very interesting read though.

 

[Kooldino]

Could we use a turbo from an EVO VIII with this adapter?

 

[SpeedProtege]

Could we use a turbo from an EVO VIII with this adapter?

the DSM style and evo 8 turbine housings are different. the evo 8 turbine exits on the passenger side (like MSP), and compressor is on the driver side. the DSM is opposite.

theoretically an EVO 8 would be the best choice. if you can get yoru hands on an adapter.

bryan

 

[DSMConvert]

yes thats the biggest thing is that the dsm turbos intake from the psgr side and spit out straight forward via the j-pipe....the 16g is actually a direct swap on 1g manifolds, but does require an adapter plate for the 2gs....the g28 is also a common swap on 2gs as it produces about the same results with a little less lag(remember there are 2 different 16gs...a big and a small which are completely different in regards to flow and spool)....having built DSMs my rec. would be to ditch the 16g idea...in the end you'll end up spending a lot of money to make it work and the gains over say a 28 will be minimal....

 

[TurfBurn]

I have an Evo III 16G in my MP3. It intakes from the driver's side, and vents forward on the drivers side. It has less lag than the "Big" 16G due to the lighter blades and different internal design. Also has much greater flow (about another 5 lbs or better). I don't know how it'd be a lot of money if the piping is reasonable to do as far as amount of modification as paying 550 bucks for a turbo is by no means "expensive"

 

[TurfBurn]

Here are the compressor maps for the Evo VIII 16G and for an 18G which the efficiency and output of is relatively close to a match of the Evo III turbo. (Supposedly the Evo III can even outflow the 18G).

I can't find any maps for the T25 for some reason and can't compare efficiencies directly. But I do know it has been grounds for some gains to ditch the T25 for the DSM's.

Later.

 

[TurfBurn]

yes thats the biggest thing is that the dsm turbos intake from the psgr side and spit out straight forward via the j-pipe....the 16g is actually a direct swap on 1g manifolds, but does require an adapter plate for the 2gs....

The orientation of mine like I said is the opposite of that, the turbo can be mounted either diretion , just a matter of how you attach portions to it, the flange is symmetrical. It can intake from the left or the right really.

the g28 is also a common swap on 2gs as it produces about the same results with a little less lag(remember there are 2 different 16gs...a big and a small which are completely different in regards to flow and spool)....having built DSMs my rec. would be to ditch the 16g idea...in the end you'll end up spending a lot of money to make it work and the gains over say a 28 will be minimal....

Also keep in mind that I'm referring to an EVO III 16G which spools much faster and flows more as well. In addition this is talking about upgrading over a T25, not over a T28. Also, the GT28RS turbo's run around 1100 from a quick search I did... that's twice the cost of the Evo III.

The compressor map for the 16G6 of the Evo VIII is pretty good, and a nice fit for our motors if you run around 18-20 psi of boost or so. The T25 is really only capable/efficient to about 15 psi from my understanding. Also, the Evo III spools much better than a T3.

All in all IF it fits, it's a good turbo swap even if the technology is older. Still has fantastic spool (pretty close to the T25 from my experience driving an MSP in comparison to my MP3 with the Evo III).

 

[low_psi]

Yea, I'd say the EVOIII 16G is the only 16G worth swapping. Even a Big16G is pretty close in size to the MSP's T25r, plus the oreintation issues.

Like Star80 said, the best idea is to probably rework the MSP turbo with a disco wheel and ported housings. Less of a headache and better technology at work.

EVOIII 16G DSMs haul ass though

 

[TurfBurn]

Cost would be the only thing at that point. If the rework was less than 600 then it'd be the better route. Otherwise the E316G would be the way to go. But a direct bolt in is of course a good idea.

I may see what it takes to rework the T25's with the disco wheel and maybe we'll offer that as a product by this summer... anyone that would be interested??

 

[jeffmsp]

interested. but cost will be a big factor. what will it be able to flow too hp wise? I think the T25R stops making power around 260whp, from what ive heard, so think you can hit 300+? with yours?

 

[low_psi]

Yea, I planned on sending Nick @ModernPerformance my turbo late this summer, after my motor build. I think the cost is around $700-800, I know that's how much another company charges for similar hybrids. Nick is making well over 330whp on the reworked stocker and pushing it into the 20lb+ pressure range.

The cost of a Garret->Mitsu flange, IC pipe modifications AND downpipe fabrication seem to make the swap a bit more expensive. I for one would like to use my pretty new GHL downpipe for a few years If only there weren't those small differences that have the potential to make the swap a headache the EVOIII would be a great alternative.

PS- If NSN offered the hybrid T25r at a competitve price, it would be most excellent.

 

[jeffmsp]

you should prebuild them and then have people just send in a core and cash so there is not as much downtime.

 

[TurfBurn]

The Evo III can support over 400 horse..

So if we wanted to that maybe we'll sell a kit for converting an MSP to an Evo III turbo...

 

[FSDET]

WOW, some people know waayyy too much about this stuff. Very interesting read though.

thats what i say to my self when i read these threads LOL