Would you buy a MAZDASPEED2?
- Thread starter Antoine
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http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...29757820362.372429.337363685362&type=1&ref=nf
Thats not just any turbo on a 2's engine, that's a DISI MZR...
Thats not just any turbo on a 2's engine, that's a DISI MZR...
This is making me start to think the car Mazda's tweeting about is just a one-off. A DISI-powered 2 would be downright dangerous in the hands of the general public.
yes, i think this car is absolutely a one-off. even if they were exploring production of a Speed2, i don't think they'd put an engine with anywhere near the same power as the MS3 in an MS2; they'd eat their own sales.
however, the last line of the facebook post is "Anyone care to speculate why the Mazda R&D team is building this prototype monster?" which implies the answer isn't "because it was there." The B-Spec racing series has been with pretty stock cars, so this is for...
I'd be interested to know what needed to be cut and moved in terms of the firewall and front subframe. It's tight and they moved some stuf around, but I don't see any serious reconfiguration in there, unless it's all behind the engine.
however, the last line of the facebook post is "Anyone care to speculate why the Mazda R&D team is building this prototype monster?" which implies the answer isn't "because it was there." The B-Spec racing series has been with pretty stock cars, so this is for...
I'd be interested to know what needed to be cut and moved in terms of the firewall and front subframe. It's tight and they moved some stuf around, but I don't see any serious reconfiguration in there, unless it's all behind the engine.
To sell more without eating their own sales, there would have to be no people out there who are buying an MS3 who wouldn't be interested in a smaller car with the same or similar performance for less money. Since the 2 is also a small economical hatchback, giving it similar performance numbers at a cheaper base-price makes it the 3s closest competitor. It's just like when the speed3 first launched while the speed6 was still on sale, and everyone whined about a lack of AWD. They claimed that AWD would have made the car too expensive, but they already had all the parts and there was an AWD Mazda3 in Japan, so the frame already existed. Really, it was mostly because if you took a speed3, added AWD and a couple thousand dollars, you'd have a lighter car with more utility and similar performance features to the 6, but a couple grand less. It would absolutely eat into 6 sales.
Think of it like the BMW M3 and 1-Series M. They *could* have had the 1 put more power out quite easily given their engine line-up, but then their closest competitor would be their own car. You get into a segment to either earn first-time buyers or to steal market share away from competitors. A 2 with a 2.3 DISI, even detuned, would still be too close to justify it to Mazda. The N/A 2.3 made 160hp, which is about the highest i think they'd go in a production Mazdaspeed2.
Think of it like the BMW M3 and 1-Series M. They *could* have had the 1 put more power out quite easily given their engine line-up, but then their closest competitor would be their own car. You get into a segment to either earn first-time buyers or to steal market share away from competitors. A 2 with a 2.3 DISI, even detuned, would still be too close to justify it to Mazda. The N/A 2.3 made 160hp, which is about the highest i think they'd go in a production Mazdaspeed2.
Autobarn posted this in the Autoblog post about the turbo 2 and MX-5:
AUTOBARN:
"The Mazda2 is The Autobarn Mazda of Countryside’s Speed2. It was built by The Autobarn for The one Lap of America Race. The car is a Mazda2 Sport with a Speed3 drivetrain including a 2.3l Turbo engine with a built bottom end by Cp-e and suspension work from Corksport. It was driven 3800 miles across the US by Eric Vates and Charles Espenlaub in the Compact car division. The car is on loan to Mazda R&D for the 2011 SEMA show"
I dunno if CP-E has any presence on this forum, but I know Corksport does. Guys, anything you can say about this beast?
AUTOBARN:
"The Mazda2 is The Autobarn Mazda of Countryside’s Speed2. It was built by The Autobarn for The one Lap of America Race. The car is a Mazda2 Sport with a Speed3 drivetrain including a 2.3l Turbo engine with a built bottom end by Cp-e and suspension work from Corksport. It was driven 3800 miles across the US by Eric Vates and Charles Espenlaub in the Compact car division. The car is on loan to Mazda R&D for the 2011 SEMA show"
I dunno if CP-E has any presence on this forum, but I know Corksport does. Guys, anything you can say about this beast?
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That makes sense, I guess. It's this car - http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?123792468-Mazda-Speed2-Build&highlight=autobarn
Not too sure how it relates to any sort of production Mazdaspeed 2, though. Kind of a bummer, in that regard. But it's still badass!!
Not too sure how it relates to any sort of production Mazdaspeed 2, though. Kind of a bummer, in that regard. But it's still badass!!
This is why we don't get these kind of hot hatches in the US. Because of like minded people. It might eat a few sales. But some people want a bigger hatch, some people want a smaller hatch. Some people like the look of the 3 more than the 2 and visa versa. It's called having options. The UK seems to handle this concept just fine. Why can't we?
Completely agree with you.
The US version of the 2 is the most powerful (largest engine) available for any 2. Yet it is considered a tiny, joke of a toy car to most Americans. People in other countries, where gas has been at a premium for much longer than it has in the US, are used to small cars. That is why there is more choice for the small cars. They actually view them as real cars, rather than toy cars.
In the US, the 3 is considered a small car. Other places it is a very large car. Sure, there are a few of us that think the 2 is awesome. But there's also a thread on this very forum about people getting laughed at because of the 2. It's that American mindset that keeps the small car options away from the US. Sadly, that might also include the Mazdaspeed 2.
Antoine
Administrator
Lovin' the discussion going on here...It's definitely heating up! (2thumbs)
Based on what has been put out there so far...It seems to me this "Speed2" is half gauging interest / half teaser...It started out as an Autobarn project but note the prominently placed "MAZDASPEED" decals...Mazda must have gotten directly involved at some point and now they're trying to figure out the best combination of specs for a production MAZDASPEED2...Autobarn tweeted me a pic of the "Speed2"...No doubt Mazda is fully aware of this thread and that many of us at Mazdas247 are chomping at the bit for a MAZDASPEED2!!!
Based on what has been put out there so far...It seems to me this "Speed2" is half gauging interest / half teaser...It started out as an Autobarn project but note the prominently placed "MAZDASPEED" decals...Mazda must have gotten directly involved at some point and now they're trying to figure out the best combination of specs for a production MAZDASPEED2...Autobarn tweeted me a pic of the "Speed2"...No doubt Mazda is fully aware of this thread and that many of us at Mazdas247 are chomping at the bit for a MAZDASPEED2!!!
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Wagonbacker9
Member
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- 2004 'Hoe
And if they sell just one car less than 299 to posters in this thread, they're gonna be PISSED! lol
Antoine
Administrator
That's just the tip of the iceberg (whether it's the next President or a new Mazda model, a lot of people just don't vote)...At this point, I believe Mazda could sell at least a few thousand MAZDASPEED2s especially as a "limited edition" model...Frankly, it's not just about the numbers, in order to attract the next generation of car enthusiasts, Mazda needs special models that get the young drivers excited about the Brand for the long-term...It's MAZDA's DUTY to make a MAZDASPEED2 so good it becomes legendary!!!
Mazda...Appeal to the autocross crowd with a seriously engineered and throughly tested yet streetable and affordable MAZDASPEED2! Not some import "fan boy" special...PLEASE.
Mazda...Appeal to the autocross crowd with a seriously engineered and throughly tested yet streetable and affordable MAZDASPEED2! Not some import "fan boy" special...PLEASE.
Wagonbacker9
Member
- :
- 2004 'Hoe
Yeah, that was just me being a smartass. I voted yes, and have since moved on to another platform because I just didn't feel I could trust my mazda any more but...
...at risk of pissing some of my fellow MSPers (past and present), if they're going to get back into the "limited production" game, it would be GREAT to get some real engineering into it, as opposed to the mechanical disaster that the MSP was. Also... PRODUCTION NUMBERS!... yes, they DO sell cars.
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Here's my two cents, based on what I've been able to piece together.
AFAIK the Autobarn project is unrelated to Mazda's "Turbo2" car. The Autobarn car is complete and has even seen some track time (albeit with some sort of engine problems). The donor cars are different too; Autobarn's is green but Mazda's is white (possibly one of the Evil Track cars they built a while back, since it has green mirrors, door handles and wheels).
I don't think a production Mazdaspeed 2 would sell well enough here to make it worth it. I have it on good authority that Mazda USA considers even the Mazdaspeed 6 to be "unsuccessful" in our market, even though I usually see at least one a day on my commute. The MS6 was positioned oddly for our market -- it was basically competing in Audi territory, but couldn't compare. An MS2 would be a similar case, I think; for what they'd need to charge for it (remember, the yen is very strong against the dollar these days, which means skinnier profits for Mazda corporate in Japan) one could get much more car for their money. People would look at the MS2 and say, "well, for just a little more I could get a bigger car" like an MS3. As others have said before me, little cars in the United States means econoboxes. (The MS3 sells as well as it does because it's positioned properly -- it has direct competitors like the WRX, Evo and others, not just in performance/amenities but also price.)
So what do I think would be the best option? Have the two trim levels for the 2 be more like those available for the Mazda 3. The 2 Sport could be either the existing 1.5L MZR ZY motor, or a 1.3L-or-so SkyActiv-G. Step up to the 2 Touring and you'd get something like a 1.6L SkyActiv-G, putting out about 135HP. With how compact and light the SkyActiv engines and transmissions are, the car would still stay in the 2300-lb range (my guess is that the Turbo2 Mazda's building will end up no lighter than 2550 lbs), and, more importantly, the front-to-rear weight balance would stay decent. I guess I tend to think of the 2/Demio as being an extension of the MX-5 and its "jinba ittai" philosophy. The Mazdaspeed 3 is already a handful; its engine in a 2 would be like swatting flies with a sledgehammer.
I don't mean to piss in anyone's Cheerios, and don't get me wrong, a wicked fast 2 would be awesome in many ways. I'm also glad that Mazda's trying to bring more attention to the 2, because I think the car deserves it. But from a production car standpoint, Mazda needs to be able to sell enough to not just recoup R&D/production costs but also make a profit, and I just don't see a Mazdaspeed 2 doing that.
AFAIK the Autobarn project is unrelated to Mazda's "Turbo2" car. The Autobarn car is complete and has even seen some track time (albeit with some sort of engine problems). The donor cars are different too; Autobarn's is green but Mazda's is white (possibly one of the Evil Track cars they built a while back, since it has green mirrors, door handles and wheels).
I don't think a production Mazdaspeed 2 would sell well enough here to make it worth it. I have it on good authority that Mazda USA considers even the Mazdaspeed 6 to be "unsuccessful" in our market, even though I usually see at least one a day on my commute. The MS6 was positioned oddly for our market -- it was basically competing in Audi territory, but couldn't compare. An MS2 would be a similar case, I think; for what they'd need to charge for it (remember, the yen is very strong against the dollar these days, which means skinnier profits for Mazda corporate in Japan) one could get much more car for their money. People would look at the MS2 and say, "well, for just a little more I could get a bigger car" like an MS3. As others have said before me, little cars in the United States means econoboxes. (The MS3 sells as well as it does because it's positioned properly -- it has direct competitors like the WRX, Evo and others, not just in performance/amenities but also price.)
So what do I think would be the best option? Have the two trim levels for the 2 be more like those available for the Mazda 3. The 2 Sport could be either the existing 1.5L MZR ZY motor, or a 1.3L-or-so SkyActiv-G. Step up to the 2 Touring and you'd get something like a 1.6L SkyActiv-G, putting out about 135HP. With how compact and light the SkyActiv engines and transmissions are, the car would still stay in the 2300-lb range (my guess is that the Turbo2 Mazda's building will end up no lighter than 2550 lbs), and, more importantly, the front-to-rear weight balance would stay decent. I guess I tend to think of the 2/Demio as being an extension of the MX-5 and its "jinba ittai" philosophy. The Mazdaspeed 3 is already a handful; its engine in a 2 would be like swatting flies with a sledgehammer.
I don't mean to piss in anyone's Cheerios, and don't get me wrong, a wicked fast 2 would be awesome in many ways. I'm also glad that Mazda's trying to bring more attention to the 2, because I think the car deserves it. But from a production car standpoint, Mazda needs to be able to sell enough to not just recoup R&D/production costs but also make a profit, and I just don't see a Mazdaspeed 2 doing that.
I think a lot of what you say is right, Webster. couple notes:
the Turbo2 is the Autobarn car, as confirmed in a post by autobarn over at Autoblog. the pics mazda is posting of the engine bay shows that their car was originally green, and there's an autobarn sticker on the Turbo2, so i'm believing that one.
I think the only way they justify doing the Speed2 is if, like Antoine said, they're hoping to appeal to a new generation of enthusiasts with something that's both small/affordable and fun/sporty. Mazda made a bet that they'd be able to win younger city drivers over with a fun drive, and i've seen reports saying mazdas moved twice as many 2s than they were expecting at least in some months, so maybe (hopefully) they're looking to up the ante again with a speed2 and go after the Abarth 500 and (sort of) the veloster.
The one other variable that no one's mentioned yet is a Fiesta ST. i've heard of one rumored for a bit now, and if that's for real, suddenly a speed2 makes a good deal more sense in terms of it's place in the segment.
either way, Mazda, if you're listening, I'm likely going to get into a used MS Miata or 2010 MS3, or a Veloster turbo next spring. A Speed2 would convert me from a used car buyer or even a competitor sale into a new car sale almost without question. Put me in a Speed2, please.
EDIT: also if mazda is listening, Dave Coleman is my automotive idol. if you could have him sign my speed2, i'd pay more for that
the Turbo2 is the Autobarn car, as confirmed in a post by autobarn over at Autoblog. the pics mazda is posting of the engine bay shows that their car was originally green, and there's an autobarn sticker on the Turbo2, so i'm believing that one.
I think the only way they justify doing the Speed2 is if, like Antoine said, they're hoping to appeal to a new generation of enthusiasts with something that's both small/affordable and fun/sporty. Mazda made a bet that they'd be able to win younger city drivers over with a fun drive, and i've seen reports saying mazdas moved twice as many 2s than they were expecting at least in some months, so maybe (hopefully) they're looking to up the ante again with a speed2 and go after the Abarth 500 and (sort of) the veloster.
The one other variable that no one's mentioned yet is a Fiesta ST. i've heard of one rumored for a bit now, and if that's for real, suddenly a speed2 makes a good deal more sense in terms of it's place in the segment.
either way, Mazda, if you're listening, I'm likely going to get into a used MS Miata or 2010 MS3, or a Veloster turbo next spring. A Speed2 would convert me from a used car buyer or even a competitor sale into a new car sale almost without question. Put me in a Speed2, please.
EDIT: also if mazda is listening, Dave Coleman is my automotive idol. if you could have him sign my speed2, i'd pay more for that
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