what is the stock turbo's limit on the ms3?

Laloosh I'm fairly certain you have this backwards here. Let me explain:

What you are saying (if I'm reading this correctly) is that under a partial throttle (lets say 47% open), the ECU is reading a pre-programmed map. And under WOT or close to it, it is going on the sensors. I think this is the exact inverse of what really goes on (and what you meant to say.)

Cars typically run a closed-loop map on low to mid-throttle ranges. Meaning, the ECU is reading all sensors, and running a map at the same time. It reads the map, and uses adaptive fuel trim strategy and timing learning to adjust its map + or - a trim value due to what it reads from the sensors. This is the nature of a closed-loop system, and its job is to achieve an ideal air/fuel ratio for proper emissions and MPG.

But when the throttle is mashed a bit more, say 75-80+% (a guess), the system should go into OPEN loop. At this point, the engine is reading no sensor, and uses its high throttle opening map combined with the effective information gathered during closed-loop operation, the Long Term Fuel Trim info picked up during Closed-Loop then is paired with the map that the ECU has already stored, and the car hauls ass at albiet at very rich (safe) ratio!

The information learned during the LTFT (long term fuel trim) strategy is then applied during WOT, open loop operation.

This is how it works.

you could still drive partial throttle, just watch how much boost it makes under how much gas you give it. Im not sure where this car goes closed/open loop but most cars are around 50 percent throttle. Say you are in 6th at 47 percent floored, your boost is set to 18 and you are hitting 18 at 47 percent throttle, You are still running off the pre programmed settings that are inbedded into the ecu. When you cross 50 percent, or wherever this car is set, it starts relying more on sensor to adjust everything.

Put it this way, its safer to be floored at 18psi then to be at partial throttle at 18psi. Just watch your guages, and drive normal. Or you can just floor your car in 6th at 3k rpm and hope it holds together.
 
Laloosh I'm fairly certain you have this backwards here. Let me explain:

What you are saying (if I'm reading this correctly) is that under a partial throttle (lets say 47% open), the ECU is reading a pre-programmed map. And under WOT or close to it, it is going on the sensors. I think this is the exact inverse of what really goes on (and what you meant to say.)

Cars typically run a closed-loop map on low to mid-throttle ranges. Meaning, the ECU is reading all sensors, and running a map at the same time. It reads the map, and uses adaptive fuel trim strategy and timing learning to adjust its map + or - a trim value due to what it reads from the sensors. This is the nature of a closed-loop system, and its job is to achieve an ideal air/fuel ratio for proper emissions and MPG.

But when the throttle is mashed a bit more, say 75-80+% (a guess), the system should go into OPEN loop. At this point, the engine is reading no sensor, and uses its high throttle opening map combined with the effective information gathered during closed-loop operation, the Long Term Fuel Trim info picked up during Closed-Loop then is paired with the map that the ECU has already stored, and the car hauls ass at albiet at very rich (safe) ratio!

The information learned during the LTFT (long term fuel trim) strategy is then applied during WOT, open loop operation.

This is how it works.

Okay, now /that's/ a little better, in referencing the pre-set mapping and throttle positions and ECU operations I now kind of understand what you have all been talking about! The ECU has maps; under partial throttle the car is running off maps as a guide, like navigating the woods, and the throttle and other sensors for air and fuel are the compass/sun. The ECU is operating off of this map and this is it's sole source of decision-making basis, and using the information from sensors it will slightly adjust fuel making it richer slightly, or leaner slightly, depending on demand which it is reading from sensors and using patterns it learns based on driving habits over time (thus 'reset' ECU). If the ECU, then, is habitually trained to respond to various stimuli in such and such a way. At over-partial (75%+) throttle the ECU turns a deaf ear to the sensors and runs solely off of a wide-to-near-wide open throttle map that is also predefined, and makes adjustments to this based solely on history/habits learned over the course of days/weeks/months of driving, depending on when you last reset your ECU.

So therefore, by this rationale, the problem therein lies in being under the point when the ECU switches into OPEN LOOP mode and is humming along reading sensors and adjusting things slightly up, or down, or what have you. When making adjustments based on this set of stimuli and a partially closed throttle map the user (driver) then decides to floor it going 54 in 6th gear, and all of a sudden the maps are still feeding sensor data from being partial throttle, and switching over to the WOT maps without sensor input. The theoretical result would then be, what? A fuel detonation occurs, and THAT's what we're all talking about when we read zoom-zoom-boom, i.e.:


"Knocking (also called pinking or pinging)— colloquially detonation—in internal combustion engines occurs when combustion of the air/fuel mixture in the cylinder starts off correctly in response to ignition by the spark plug, but one or more pockets of air/fuel mixture explode outside the envelope of the normal combustion front. In non-diesel combustion engines, the fuel-air charge is designed to be ignited by the spark plug only, and at a precise time in the piston's stroke cycle designed for the engine. When Detonation (Knocking) occurs two or more combustion fronts will exist and their resultant collisions produce a sudden rise in cylinder pressure and a shock-wave which will reverberate around the cylinder[1]. The peak of the combustion process no longer occurs at the optimum moment for the four-stroke cycle. The resulting shock-wave reverberates in the combustion chamber, creating the characteristic metallic "pinging" sound, and pressure increases catastrophically. It can range from hardly noticeable to complete engine destruction."

"Reduction of cylinder pressure by increasing the engine revolutions (lower gear), decreasing the manifold pressure (throttle opening) or reducing the load on the engine, or any combination."
 
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"Reduction of cylinder pressure by increasing the engine revolutions (lower gear), decreasing the manifold pressure (throttle opening) or reducing the load on the engine, or any combination."

Or by retarding or advancing intake valve timing. This is where I think the lack of drivability is comming into play in comparison to stock. If there were a tune that could manipulate this, I think under higher boost in a modified car, you wouldn't have the problems being seen under heavy load.
 
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the car runs off of all sensors under light throttle, but at WOT it reads ONLY the MAF. just by knowing how much air is entering the motor the car can run an effective map. that is why adding boost can still keep good A/F's the MAF still sees the correct amount of in coming air, and responds to it. but the car does not just do blind when you go balls out.
 
car runs based on maf and o2 sensors under wot throttle, at partial throttle they run mostly off what is inbedded into the ecu. If you dont beleive me, pull off your primary o2 sensor and whatch the ecu dump maximum fuel. Thats why partial throttle tunning is a b****, no matter what you do the ecu will always revert to stock settings.
 
thats backwards laloosh. Its reads off of predetermined maps under WOT and anytime else it relies on sensors to keep in tune around stoich
 
thats backwards laloosh. Its reads off of predetermined maps under WOT and anytime else it relies on sensors to keep in tune around stoich

how is it backwards? Under partial throttle the ecu is telling everything to stay around stoich for mpgs, it alot harder to change that rather then changing wot. Under wot it relies on the maf and primary o2, hence the reasont he car runs stupid rich the second u unplug the primary o2 sensor. This is how it worked on all my past cars, i see no reason why this one would be different
 
Laloosh, without being offended, re-read my post regarding that, and it will make sense.

Granted, it probably goes pig-rich as a default to save the engine when a sensor can't be read, but the LTFT Strategy is what sets the WOT ECU response along with a pre-made map independent of the partial throttle map.

If people need it, I have tons of literature on Closed-loop vs. Open-loop educational files based on this issue. I can copy-paste.
 
how is it backwards? Under partial throttle the ecu is telling everything to stay around stoich for mpgs, it alot harder to change that rather then changing wot. Under wot it relies on the maf and primary o2, hence the reasont he car runs stupid rich the second u unplug the primary o2 sensor. This is how it worked on all my past cars, i see no reason why this one would be different

Using my dashhawk looking at Load/commanded AFR/WB AFR at partial thorttle the ECM commands stoich. Hovers around 14.65:1 as does the WB reading, as soon as the load gets to around 50% she goes crazy rich.
 
Laloosh, without being offended, re-read my post regarding that, and it will make sense.

Granted, it probably goes pig-rich as a default to save the engine when a sensor can't be read, but the LTFT Strategy is what sets the WOT ECU response along with a pre-made map independent of the partial throttle map.

If people need it, I have tons of literature on Closed-loop vs. Open-loop educational files based on this issue. I can copy-paste.

im not offended, i just dont agree lol
 
Laloosh, without being offended, re-read my post regarding that, and it will make sense.

Granted, it probably goes pig-rich as a default to save the engine when a sensor can't be read, but the LTFT Strategy is what sets the WOT ECU response along with a pre-made map independent of the partial throttle map.

If people need it, I have tons of literature on Closed-loop vs. Open-loop educational files based on this issue. I can copy-paste.

You know, all this has me thinking. About the Corksport Downpipe, and 02 sensor operation/masking.

From wikipedia: (I'm catching up quick and nasty)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-fuel_ratio
"In theory a stoichiometric mixture has just enough air to completely burn the available fuel. In practice this is never quite achieved, due primarily to the very short time available in an internal combustion engine for each combustion cycle. Most of the combustion process completes in approximately 4-5 milliseconds at an engine speed of 6000 rpm. This is the time that elapses from when the spark is fired until the burning of the fuel air mix is essentially complete after some 80 degrees of crankshaft rotation.

Catalytic converters are designed to work best when the exhaust gases passing through them show nearly perfect combustion has taken place."

Soooo, what's the 02 sensor masker that comes with and is necessary to avoid CELs by on the CS DP /actually/ telling the ECU??

Is the sensor reading a range of % exhaust gases and in turn telling the ECU, "All clear, all clear. Everything's okay here; we just had a blaster malfunction. But we're fine, we're all fine. How are you?"

Is it falsley reporting a standard range, or do these numbers fluxuate based on incoming A/F mixture (as seems the case) and then what happens, if it is a real o2 sensor, what is adjusted? It seems like there might be a lean/rich and/or horsepower loss/gain based on adjustments the ECU may make based on o2 readings, such as correction of an imbalance. Am just grasping here at my preliminary understandings on this stuff, just seems like messing with sensors in a system set up to maintain perfect combustion (or as perfect as possible) could hurt in the long run...
 
the dp cel are caused by the 2nd o2 sensor which is there for nothing more then emissions. Fooling it wont change anything besides your check engine light.
 
common sense theories rule:

wot has to measure air going in/air going out. Aka use the maf and check the a/f ratio via primary o2 sensor. Keep in mind this is once you reach a certain load. It will try to keep it as close to the stock wot tune as possible before it starts running out of fuel

partial throttle maps = keep it at close to stoich as possible, aka preprogramed map that cars about nothing but load and a/f ratio, keep the load under 50% and u will have a 14.7 a/f ratio, add 18psi to that and you have boom.
 
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Woah Laloosh...you may not agree but that is exactly how these cars run. This is how ALL adaptive fuel strategy ECU's work.

Now granted, you are partially correct saying that a partial throttle map is within the ECU, and the ECU seeks a stoich tune. No doubt about it. But, how it does it is different then you are saying, and you must address the LTFT and STFT issue.

(lifted from sources regarding the issue)

With Closed Loop (CL) control, the ECU has feedback to tell it whether it hit the desired A/F ratio target or not (well, sort of, as we'll find out). At part throttle, when the engine runs at the stoichiometric (chemically correct) A/F ratio (required for minimum emissions, and maximum catalytic converter efficiency), the combustion products should ideally be only water vapor and carbon dioxide. If the A/F ratio was a little lean (too much air and/or not enough fuel), the excess (unburned) oxygen will show up in the exhaust gases. Using an O2 sensor, the ECU can now detect when the engine is running lean. Vice versa on the other side, running rich.

So what happens when the engine is running rich and there is no oxygen in the exhaust? The ECU will assume that if there's no oxygen present in the exhaust, then the A/F ratio must be rich. At that point, the ECU makes a conscious decision to lean the A/F ratio, that is, until it reads oxygen in the exhaust again. At that point, the ECU knows it went too far (it's now lean), so it will richen things up again until the oxygen disappears, but now it's rich again, so the ECU will again lean things out, and so on. In CL mode, the ECU will continually cycle the A/F ratio lean, then rich, over and over, hovering the A/F ratio closely around the stoichiometric point.

In CL mode, the ECU will still go through its normal PW calculation, then adjust the PW if necessary, based on what the feedback loop (O2 sensors) is saying. Any adjustment to the calculated PW is handled by the ECU as a Short Term Fuel Trim (STFT). With modern (second generation) On Board Diagnostics (OBD II), many ECU parameters can now easily be logged in real time, including the STFT. Depending on the ECU and data-logging system being used, STFT can be reported differently, sometimes as a plus or negative percent (minus STFT meaning the engine is running lean, so the ECU is reducing its calculated A/F ratio in order to get the actual desired A/F ratio), or as a number around 1.00 (STFT numbers less than one, meaning the ECU is correcting a lean condition).

Adaptive Strategy - If the ECU constantly needs to shorten calculated PW to achieve the desired A/F ratio in CL mode, it knows its programming is calculating a PW too long (possibly from erroneous sensor inputs), and it will remember that correction for next time it makes a PW calculation for the same operating conditions of load and rpm. In other words, the ECU actually learns. The remembered corrections are known as Long Term Fuel Trims (LTFT). The LTFT work oppositely to the STFT, i.e., a plus LTFT (or LTFT greater than one) indicates the ECU is adding some to the calculated PW, in order to get the A/F it wants, based on what it's learned in the past.

Even though the ECU only knows it's hitting the desired A/F ratio when the A/F ratio is stoichiometric (in CL mode), the ECU can also apply the learned corrections (LTFT) any time the ECU is operating in OL mode, and commanding an A/F ratio other than stoichiometric. This Adaptive Strategy allows sensors to age and drift in their readings, but the ECU can now correct for the errors, and still hit the desired A/F ratio in the end.

In the real world, adaptive strategy can be a problem. For some ECUs, corrections learned at one set of operating conditions (e.g., idle) are also applied under other operating conditions (like high-rpm WOT). In that case, if you have a MAF sensor that reads too rich at idle, a leaned idle correction is learned, which if also applied at WOT, can spell disaster. For these applications, it's necessary to either rework the adaptive learning table in the programming to prevent learned corrections from being applied under other operating conditions, or make certain the MAF sensor calibration is corrected. The least desirable, last-ditch technique is to disable adaptive learning in the tune. Whichever way, a custom tune is required.

Closed Loop mode (and Adaptive Strategy learning) is usually only active during part throttle modes, when the engine and O2 sensors are up to stabilized temperatures, and the goal is an A/F ratio right at stoichiometric. During the first few minutes after the engine is first started, and during high-load periods (like WOT) when a richer A/F ratio is intentionally desired, OL fueling strategy is typically used. Thus for maximum power, we need to ensure the ECU calculates the correct OL injector PW, so we get the WOT A/F ratio right. This is where a proper tune comes in.

---

Here's another take on it as well:

There is much confusion about how Adaptive Control works especially at WOT. Adaptive control, is always functional at WOT and anything less than WOT. The difference is that in open loop and at less than WOT, this feature monitors O2 sensors and writes correction trim factors to Keep Alive Memory, which are applied to the base table value for future calculations. This is accomplished by varying injector pulse width. The rate at which Adaptive Control writes these correction factors to KAM is slow enough to filter out short duration upsets in the mixture. Short-term closed loop corrections are written to Long-Term Adaptive Strategy KAM if they are repeatedly seen out-of-spec by the O2 sensors. At WOT the Adaptive Control still functions but it does not update (or write) correction factors to KAM for application to the base tables it defaults to the already stored trim values, if any have been written, for the load and engine temperature experienced in the WOT load range.

Also remember, the corrections are limited to about 25%, so if you change fuel calculations beyond the ability of the ECU to correct, it will not be able to tune out your changes.



-= Hope this helps... we need to understand the system fully if we are to take advantage of it!
 
you do realize that we are saying the same thing right? Your just adding short and long term fuel trims to it and im not. Im giving people the most basic overlay of how it works, ure going in depth, in the end its the same thing.
 
how is it backwards? Under partial throttle the ecu is telling everything to stay around stoich for mpgs, it alot harder to change that rather then changing wot. Under wot it relies on the maf and primary o2, hence the reasont he car runs stupid rich the second u unplug the primary o2 sensor. This is how it worked on all my past cars, i see no reason why this one would be different

thats just what I said. In this car WOT is anywhere from 50%-85% on up as evidenced by the by the TPS logs.
 
thats just what I said. In this car WOT is anywhere from 50%-85% on up as evidenced by the by the TPS logs.

so we're agreeing.....right? To me it sounds like we're all saying hte same thing, some in more complicated ways then others.
 

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