What have you done to your Mazda5 today?

[sac02]

I will refrain from giving my impressions on how it behaves until after the auto-x this weekend.

Cool! Lower lap times or bust!

I'm of the firm belief that 90% of those who give performance reviews after a drive around the neighborhood are either:
1) fools, for thinking get they can judge how a part affects limit handling while puttering through the neighborhood at a normal pace, or
2) a-holes, for driving their car at limit handling on public roads and endangering others.

Keep it on the track, everybody! (first)

And if you aren't already on the track, get there - it's fun! (thumb)

 

[Silentnoise713]

I'm of the firm belief that 90% of those who give performance reviews after a drive around the neighborhood are either:
1) fools, for thinking get they can judge how a part affects limit handling while puttering through the neighborhood at a normal pace, or
2) a-holes, for driving their car at limit handling on public roads and endangering others.

May I steal this quote for future reference and what about the 10%?? If they are slow (on the track) does it still count?

 

[phunky.buddha]

I'm of the firm belief that 90% of those who give performance reviews after a drive around the neighborhood are either:
1) fools, for thinking get they can judge how a part affects limit handling while puttering through the neighborhood at a normal pace, or
2) a-holes, for driving their car at limit handling on public roads and endangering others.

Keep it on the track, everybody! (first)

And if you aren't already on the track, get there - it's fun! (thumb)

Yay! I got to be one of the a-holes wagging the tail a little bit around my neighborhood streets with you riding shotgun.

I do think that it's possible to tell a LOT about how a car handles on a short drive... if you have enough experience and know what you're looking for. Which is not most people.

May I steal this quote for future reference and what about the 10%?? If they are slow (on the track) does it still count?

 

[njaremka]

I'm of the firm belief that 90% of those who give performance reviews after a drive around the neighborhood are either:
1) fools, for thinking get they can judge how a part affects limit handling while puttering through the neighborhood at a normal pace, or
2) a-holes, for driving their car at limit handling on public roads and endangering others.

Keep it on the track, everybody! (first)

And if you aren't already on the track, get there - it's fun! (thumb)

i'm of the firm belief that 90% of the people that buy performance upgrades for their Mazda5 do so to enhance the daily driving experience. as such, those people would be most interested in how the car feels while puttering around the neighborhood at a normal pace.

 

[sac02]

Yay! I got to be one of the a-holes wagging the tail a little bit around my neighborhood streets with you riding shotgun.

I do think that it's possible to tell a LOT about how a car handles on a short drive... if you have enough experience and know what you're looking for. Which is not most people.

I'd agree with that.
The 90% I refer to is mostly kids who put a swaybar on their civic (or WRX these days), back out of the driveway, and proclaim the great handling benefits due to their latest setup change, like they just found another 3 tenths in Alonzo's Ferrari at Monaco or something.
So you get to be part of the 10%. (thumb)
Plus we just took a couple quick turns, we weren't bombing through suburbia at 60mph. There's a time and place for aggressive driving, and 90% of the time thats the track. There's occasion when you can have fun on public roads and not be an a-hole (I know I've done it)

 

[sac02]

i'm of the firm belief that 90% of the people that buy performance upgrades for their Mazda5 do so to enhance the daily driving experience. as such, those people would be most interested in how the car feels while puttering around the neighborhood at a normal pace.

If you're trying to call me out as a hypocrite, you should check my sanctioned race results in my 5. You can feel firmer/softer springs and shocks puttering around, but you can't feel oversteer/understeer balance without being near limit handling, thats just how it works - until you start to generate (significant) slip angles, there is no oversteer/understeer.

Edit1: yes, tires develop slip angles at all times, not just limit handling. But not slip angles significant enough to significantly change the apparent behavior of the car at 0.4 lateral G.

Edit2: my apologies for calling people fools, a-holes, and hypocrites all before 7am. Not sure why I'm so feisty this morning.

My point is that most people, when faced with the choice of cornering above 0.5g, or hitting that tree just off the side of the road - most people will choose the tree.

 

[Mopho]

If you're trying to call me out as a hypocrite, you should check my sanctioned race results in my 5. You can feel firmer/softer springs and shocks puttering around, but you can't feel oversteer/understeer balance without being near limit handling, thats just how it works - until you start to generate (significant) slip angles, there is no oversteer/understeer.

No, I believe he is trying to point out that most people don't buy a Mazda5 to do performance driving. I made the mods to mine to improve the appearance, and while I can appreciate the handling of the car, my Mz5 is primarily used to haul camera gear and my kid around. I have another car that is much better for exploring slip angles with

 

[njaremka]

If you're trying to call me out as a hypocrite, ....

nope, just that it sounds like you are one of the 10%

 

[rodslinger]

i'm of the firm belief that 90% of the people that buy performance upgrades for their Mazda5 do so to enhance the daily driving experience. as such, those people would be most interested in how the car feels while puttering around the neighborhood at a normal pace.

Hell yeah... If my kids cheeks aren't pressed against the windows when turning into the driveway then I'm losing too much grip.

 

[sac02]

Hmm, while you raise a good point (I'm anxiously awaiting the first time my son says, "faster, daddy!"), i still contend that one shouldn't be probing the limits of their car in a public setting, and that you're not going to feel the effect of that swaybar at" safe" speeds.

 

[Silentnoise713]

I think what you may have overlooked is that mods are not 100% full on or full off. We all agree only the track can fully exploit the MAX potential of any mod but this fails to factor in the everyday improvement. I think everyone has or knows a local stretch of road that they are very familiar with (wink wink) to use as common baseline.

Btw, how do you feel about removing both bars all together or going as small as possible on the track?

 

[njaremka]

Hmm, while you raise a good point (I'm anxiously awaiting the first time my son says, "faster, daddy!"), i still contend that one shouldn't be probing the limits of their car in a public setting, and that you're not going to feel the effect of that swaybar at" safe" speeds.

i totally agree that searching the limits of the car on the streets is stupid. however, i disagree that you won't feel the effects of a sway bar change at safe speeds. the mazda5 has horrible suspension tuning from mazda, and will benefit in driving confidence from a simple sway bar and damper upgrade. even a simple change to mazdaspeed3 swaybars and konis/bilsteins will be noticed during daily driving activities.

 

[sac02]

I think what you may have overlooked is that mods are not 100% full on or full off. ...

... i disagree that you won't feel the effects of a sway bar change at safe speeds. the mazda5 has horrible suspension tuning from mazda, and will benefit in driving confidence from a simple sway bar and damper upgrade. even a simple change to mazdaspeed3 swaybars and konis/bilsteins will be noticed during daily driving activities.

I totally agree that mods aren't on/off. But I am making a distinction between ride motions and vehicle "balance". Things like stiffer springs and shocks are easily discernible at low speeds regarding their effect to ride comfort and roll gradient deg/G (what "most" people associate with a "good handling" car - it is stiff and corners "flat"). However, while it technically exists, the affect on the balance of the vehicle isn't easily discernible at low speeds/lateral accelerations/slip angles. Here is why, from a vehicle dynamics perspective:

This balance is also commonly known as understeer or oversteer, or in vehicle dynamics terms is the "understeer gradient", K. K defines whether the car is inherently understeer or oversteer prone.

Skipping all the derivation, steer angle, delta, required to negotiate a turn is:
delta=(L/R)+front slip angle-rear slip angle

If you do some math and convert slip angles into lateral forces using cornering stiffnesses, the equation becomes:
delta=(L/R)+K(V^2/R)

Or in terms of lateral acceleration, Ay:
delta=(L/R)+K(Ay)

Note the V^2 term - lateral acceleration is dependent on velocity squared, as is the steer angle. This is why autocrossers go to such extreme lengths to try to get the car to "rotate", because physics says that at low speeds the effect of K will be small. This is why a properly set up auto-x car (30mph corners) will be virtually undriveable on a track with 100mph corners. And consequently why it's difficult (but I will agree not impossible) to evaluate your latest swaybar change at legal (low) speeds (and consequently low lateral accelerations and slip angles)

Here's a graph that shows the velocity squared effect:

Btw, how do you feel about removing both bars all together or going as small as possible on the track?

(Assuming we are talking auto-x/track setups, not street)... I would not remove the rear bar in this FWD car, you typically need a lot of rear stiffness in a FWD vehicle and this car is no exception (in my admittedly limited experience). Removing the front bar is a definite option, and common in many FWD auto-x setups. Removing the FSB often allows better (earlier and stronger) power application, which in a FWD

My auto-x'ing with this car reveals that some form of RSB was needed for my setup, but I was delaying my purchase of the RSB to save that money for the turbo. I was planning to test the disconnected FSB and the event this weekend, but I stumbled into a free ms3 RSB from a local. So instead I will be running this weekend with just the RSB (only change one thing at a time logic). If it becomes evident after the first run or two that the ms3 RSB is not "enough" for my tastes, I *may* try to disconnect the FSB between runs to test out the setup without it. That would be a nice back-to-back test that could give some pretty good data about which setup is faster, if I do choose to try it.

Keep in mind that my spring rates are stiffer than stock (though not super stiff by racing standards). I have 450lb/in springs, IIRC the stock springs are under 200? So on stock springs the ARB contributes a higher percentage to the effective wheel rate during cornering than it would with stiffer springs (so far I've seen some serious ms3 guys running 1000lb/in in the front). The effect of running a disconnected ARB with stock springs may be significantly different than with stiff springs - turn-in response and front camber control during roll may be unacceptable with a stock sprung vehicle, whereas they may be acceptable and able to be tuned around with a modified vehicle.

 

[njaremka]

you're a funny guy

all that talk, and i go back to my comment here:

i totally agree that searching the limits of the car on the streets is stupid. however, i disagree that you won't feel the effects of a sway bar change at safe speeds. the mazda5 has horrible suspension tuning from mazda, and will benefit in driving confidence from a simple sway bar and damper upgrade. even a simple change to mazdaspeed3 swaybars and konis/bilsteins will be noticed during daily driving activities.

even the average driver will feel a difference in how the car "feels" with simple modifications, and at safe street speeds. i'm certainly not talking about how the car reacts at the limits.

also, repeated for emphasis...

... it sounds like you are one of the 10%

 

[torquelover]

i totally agree that searching the limits of the car on the streets is stupid. however, i disagree that you won't feel the effects of a sway bar change at safe speeds.

I have changed the RSB and sometimes just the endlinks/bushings and noticed a huge difference in feel on several cars in the past. Most dramatic for me was on my '92 Civic LX. It came with no sway bars at all, and mild cornering produced enough lean to grind the OEM mud flaps on the ground. After installing F/R sways the car was a night and day difference. Especially noticeable was it's composure on the highway. Much more stable, less wander, and a lot less sensitivity to crosswinds or passing semis.

I would say almost 99% of the cars I have driven in my lifetime are tuned for understeer from the factory, as it is considered safer for 99% of the drivers out there. This is why an upgraded RSB is a must for most of my daily drivers. I am one of the few out here that prefer RWD versus FWD for winter driving due to this factory tuning.

 

[sac02]

yeah, most cars are tuned for understeer in their stock forms, and for performance driving some tuning to reduce understeer will be beneficial. It is my opinion (and the point I was trying to make) that probing and feeling that balance is not something that can typically be done safely on public roads at legal speeds. (Whether or not we actually do it at extra-legal or potentially unsafe speeds is another topic.)

I agree with your above example of your '92 Civic - you mention that adding ARBs made a significant difference in how the vehicle leaned (roll gradient, defined in degrees of roll per G of lateral acceleration). That is something that is more easily discernible with normal driving. What you didn't mention was if/how they affected the understeer/oversteer balance of the car. That is what I'm trying to explain is the more difficult thing to determine (again, legally and safely) on the street. Not that it can't be done, but it isn't the same as noticing that your new springs are stiffer than your old ones, or that sway bars make the car lean less than no sway bars.

I will back off and admit that my first post calling everyone but me either a fool or an a-hole was probably somewhat exaggerated, lol. But if you replace your 26mm RSB with a 29mm RSB, than drive over to your friend Steve's house and exclaim, "Dude, the RSB upgrade totally changed how my car handles, it's so oversteer-y and awesome racecar now!" (more hyperbole on my part), then there's probably a good chance that you're either 1) suffering placebo effect, 2)BS'ing, or 3) driving in an unsafe manner for public streets.

Should we move this to a separate thread? I feel we're a bit OT in this thread with arguments about suspension and if we can feel this change or that change.

 

[MR6]

Hell yeah... If my kids cheeks aren't pressed against the windows when turning into the driveway then I'm losing too much grip.

lol my kids love the way i drive. I'm aggressive but i only make the tires howl when i'm alone. there was one RARE occasion when i let the tail hang a bit in our old 04 Audi A4 wagon. And they loved it. I know i know, i'm an a-hole. but only sometimes

Hmm, while you raise a good point (I'm anxiously awaiting the first time my son says, "faster, daddy!"), i still contend that one shouldn't be probing the limits of their car in a public setting, and that you're not going to feel the effect of that swaybar at" safe" speeds.

Define "safe" I'm an aggressive driver. there's NO denying it. Every off ramp marked 35 sees at least 60. But ONLY after a car (or van) has been properly prepped to handle that situation. Before i put my recent mods on the 5 i NEVER took an off ramp at much more the 5+ the posted. The girl just wasn't built for it . Now that the coils, MS3 brakes, MS3 RSB, and UHP tires are in, game on But again, i only play in off ramps after a i pass all the Sunday drivers. Or on the back roads i take my bike onto. NEVER , EVER on local or residential streets. Am i still an a-hole? (poke) (bolt)

...
Skipping all the derivation, steer angle, delta, required to negotiate a turn is:
delta=(L/R)+front slip angle-rear slip angle

If you do some math and convert slip angles into lateral forces using cornering stiffnesses, the equation becomes:
delta=(L/R)+K(V^2/R)

Or in terms of lateral acceleration, Ay:
delta=(L/R)+K(Ay)

Note the V^2 term - lateral acceleration is dependent on velocity squared, as is the steer angle. This is why autocrossers go to such extreme lengths to try to get the car to "rotate", because physics says that at low speeds the effect of K will be small. This is why a properly set up auto-x car (30mph corners) will be virtually undriveable on a track with 100mph corners. And consequently why it's difficult (but I will agree not impossible) to evaluate your latest swaybar change at legal (low) speeds (and consequently low lateral accelerations and slip angles)...

WAAAAAY TOO MUCH "RACING MATH" FOR A MINIVAN FORUM! (uhm) (limb)

...
I would say almost 99% of the cars I have driven in my lifetime are tuned for understeer from the factory, as it is considered safer for 99% of the drivers out there....

I've never quite wrapped my head around that. How does it make sense to tune the suspension to continue a trajectory of mostly hopelessly crashing into whatever your pointing at cause the dam car understeers for "safety"? On two way roads it's a head on collision. I would rather counter steer my way out of a hairy situation. On OEM suspension tunes, the only hope is lift off oversteer to correct the line. I've had that fail me twice when i was young and stupid. Correcting oversteer with counter steering feels more natural to me - and possible. And i'd rather whack an oncoming car with my trunk than go through a head on. Mild oversteer or neutral is where i feel they should be tuning OEMs. But i guess it's like you said, "safer for 99% of the drivers out there" who have no clue what counter steer or understeer even are.

Are cars being tuned to direct the crash to where the vehicle structures are most prepared to take the hit? That's probably it...but i think the human body would take less of hit if i whack the tree with the "oversteering" rear than head on...

...
I will back off and admit that my first post calling everyone but me either a fool or an a-hole was probably somewhat exaggerated, lol...

(sadbanana) Yeah maaan, i have feelings maaaaannnn! But not for nothin, i read that the day you posted and was taken back enough to wait until now to post. But your still my turbo-grocery getting hero!

 

[phunky.buddha]

I'd agree with that.
The 90% I refer to is mostly kids who put a swaybar on their civic (or WRX these days), back out of the driveway, and proclaim the great handling benefits due to their latest setup change, like they just found another 3 tenths in Alonzo's Ferrari at Monaco or something.
So you get to be part of the 10%. (thumb)
Plus we just took a couple quick turns, we weren't bombing through suburbia at 60mph. There's a time and place for aggressive driving, and 90% of the time thats the track. There's occasion when you can have fun on public roads and not be an a-hole (I know I've done it)

Well, I DO try to peg the G meter as high as I can (while driving at 80%) on the way to work every morning. When it's dry. And warm. And the R-S3s stick.

WAAAAAY TOO MUCH "RACING MATH" FOR A MINIVAN FORUM! (uhm) (limb)

Never say "too much math" to an engineer! Our brains start to short out when we hear that phrase...

 

[thaxman]

Well, I DO try to peg the G meter as high as I can (while driving at 80%) on the way to work every morning. When it's dry. And warm. And the R-S3s stick.

Never say "too much math" to an engineer! Our brains start to short out when we hear that phrase...

too much math too much math TOO MUCH MATH!!!
I like diagrams.

 

[twintrbo]

I siliconed the slides/pivots/rollers/tracks on my sliding doors. Didn't realize how bad they were getting until it was fixed. The drivers side had gotten difficult to slide so that sparked the maintenance.

I also realized there are some VERY enthusiastic owners here lol. You racer guys crack me up, we all bought these things because of the driving experience but its truly taken to a new level here! Whats the consensus on ride Quality with the MS3 RSB? I have a chance to pick one up for under 100 but I will catch hell if the ride gets much stiffer. MR6, I forget, did the MS3 brakes fit with the stock 17's?

I corner aggressively with this car but with the lack of power I tend to not be very aggressive in a straight line. I will have to post my in car footage when I took my girls to the auto-x. Aged 3 and 6 at the time and having a ball.