turkey again
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MAZDA_SPEED
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- BLACK MSP
its bad for the exhaust(lol2)(hah)......(bang)
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kung fu hustle
Member
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- 1988 Mazda 323 GTX AWD
the 'turkey noise' is called compressor surge. yes it's quite bad. turbo compresses the intake air charge, then you cut off it's route when you shut the throttle, without a bypass, the air rushes back towards the compressor and slams into it, causing a chatter. that chatter is your compressor fighting against the turbine, and losing horribly. great way to blow seals, shatter compressor veins and eventually dispose of your turbo.
if your bypass is hooked up and it's still chattering, then you need to loosen the spring on the top... if it has no spring, you have a non adjustable that is designed for a car using much lighter pressure then yours, it is ineffective and you will still kill the turbo.
if your bypass is hooked up and it's still chattering, then you need to loosen the spring on the top... if it has no spring, you have a non adjustable that is designed for a car using much lighter pressure then yours, it is ineffective and you will still kill the turbo.
Some BOVs just sound different.
There are plenty of Supras running around with the turkey, and no blown turbos. I love the turkey, and I will not get rid of it.
http://www.blowoffvalves.com/
Check out the sound clips and videos. We're not the only one's who gobble.
Also, true compressor surge sounds a lot different than our gobble.
There are plenty of Supras running around with the turkey, and no blown turbos. I love the turkey, and I will not get rid of it.
http://www.blowoffvalves.com/
Check out the sound clips and videos. We're not the only one's who gobble.
Also, true compressor surge sounds a lot different than our gobble.
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you must be one of the lucky ones man are you using a vacume source of the booster line
yes my line is ran to the BBL
+2 no evidence of turbo dying from turkey.
HondaEat-R
Member
Compressor surge, turkey, dos'n, it's all the same and all bad for your turbo. To the people saying "it's not bad, no proof, etc..", what does someone have to do for you to believe it? Have nasty surge & not ever fix it so they can F up a turbo, just to prove a point ?
Your turbo was made to spin one way, and wind down gradually, that's it. Stopping it abruptly mid-spin is not good for it. There's a reason BOV's are important, whether you vent or recirc...you really need one, and for it to work properly. If you really need proof, call a shop that tunes lots of turbo motors and ask if surge is bad.
Your turbo was made to spin one way, and wind down gradually, that's it. Stopping it abruptly mid-spin is not good for it. There's a reason BOV's are important, whether you vent or recirc...you really need one, and for it to work properly. If you really need proof, call a shop that tunes lots of turbo motors and ask if surge is bad.
HondaEat-R
Member
Oh, so that's where we're headed then ? Listen buddy, first, grow the **** up. Honestly, it's irritating to come to a new forum after being on a different forum for 7 years, and find that there are still clowns like you running around. Wow, you've had two turbo cars....ever. I'm impressed. SO you must have it all in the bag than right ? Go read a god damn book. You claim that turkey's not compressor surge...what is it then big guy ? Here's some FACT for you :
**Characterized by mild flutter to wildly fluctuating boost and “barking” from the compressor. Continued operation within this region can lead to premature turbo failure due to heavy thrust loading.
** Surge is most commonly experienced when one of two situations exist. The first and most damaging is surge under load. It can be an indication that your compressor is too large. Surge is also commonly experienced when the throttle is quickly closed after boosting. This occurs because mass flow is drastically reduced as the throttle is closed, but the turbo is still spinning and generating boost. This immediately drives the operating point to the far left of the compressor map, right into surge.
**Surge will decay once the turbo speed finally slows enough to reduce the boost and move the operating point back into the stable region. This situation is commonly addressed by using a Blow-Off Valves (BOV) or bypass valve. A BOV functions to vent intake pressure to atmosphere so that the mass flow ramps down smoothly, keeping the compressor out of surge. In the case of a recirculating bypass valve, the airflow is recirculated back to the compressor inlet.
This isn't rocket science, it's just...science. If you weren't skipping class and smoking pot in the woods, you'd understand physics & know what I'm talking about. Almost all of the people that have Turkey problems here, have either half-ass BOV/BPV set-ups, or ones that aren't adjusted properly. When you let off the throttle and that butterfly plate shuts and slams air backwards or stops the air from moving where it should, you better hope a good BOV or BPV set-up is there for you. OTHERWISE, your turbo simply isn't operating as it should. Easy stuff. I'm not ignorant, and above all, not stupid. I'm older than prob 90% of this forum, and speak from intelligence and experience, not ignorance. Keep on rocking that cool turkey, I'm sure it'll pay off...
The shops I talk to aren't a joke. Very reputable tuning shops (http://www.rpmnyc.com/products.html), that specifically work with turbocharged cars & trucks. Not Monroe Muffler. Any shop that knows asses from elbows, wouldn't let a car they were tuning leave that shop with the turkey noise that some people here have. IT'S A PROBLEM, AND THEY'D FIX IT.....
I understand that the "true compressor surge" you speak of is characterized by unstable airflow and more boost than the turbo can take at that RPM, but that's not the only kind of surge...
"Go do some research" you say. You're not as smart as you want these forum members to think you are. You reference your own posts as learning material ? Get a grip on reality buddy. I don't care if you get all pissy because people talk about "Turkey" being bad for a turbocharger. It is !!... :0)
Maybe you should....go do some research, and not just reflect on your own previous writings.
**Characterized by mild flutter to wildly fluctuating boost and “barking” from the compressor. Continued operation within this region can lead to premature turbo failure due to heavy thrust loading.
** Surge is most commonly experienced when one of two situations exist. The first and most damaging is surge under load. It can be an indication that your compressor is too large. Surge is also commonly experienced when the throttle is quickly closed after boosting. This occurs because mass flow is drastically reduced as the throttle is closed, but the turbo is still spinning and generating boost. This immediately drives the operating point to the far left of the compressor map, right into surge.
**Surge will decay once the turbo speed finally slows enough to reduce the boost and move the operating point back into the stable region. This situation is commonly addressed by using a Blow-Off Valves (BOV) or bypass valve. A BOV functions to vent intake pressure to atmosphere so that the mass flow ramps down smoothly, keeping the compressor out of surge. In the case of a recirculating bypass valve, the airflow is recirculated back to the compressor inlet.
This isn't rocket science, it's just...science. If you weren't skipping class and smoking pot in the woods, you'd understand physics & know what I'm talking about. Almost all of the people that have Turkey problems here, have either half-ass BOV/BPV set-ups, or ones that aren't adjusted properly. When you let off the throttle and that butterfly plate shuts and slams air backwards or stops the air from moving where it should, you better hope a good BOV or BPV set-up is there for you. OTHERWISE, your turbo simply isn't operating as it should. Easy stuff. I'm not ignorant, and above all, not stupid. I'm older than prob 90% of this forum, and speak from intelligence and experience, not ignorance. Keep on rocking that cool turkey, I'm sure it'll pay off...
The shops I talk to aren't a joke. Very reputable tuning shops (http://www.rpmnyc.com/products.html), that specifically work with turbocharged cars & trucks. Not Monroe Muffler. Any shop that knows asses from elbows, wouldn't let a car they were tuning leave that shop with the turkey noise that some people here have. IT'S A PROBLEM, AND THEY'D FIX IT.....
I understand that the "true compressor surge" you speak of is characterized by unstable airflow and more boost than the turbo can take at that RPM, but that's not the only kind of surge...
"Go do some research" you say. You're not as smart as you want these forum members to think you are. You reference your own posts as learning material ? Get a grip on reality buddy. I don't care if you get all pissy because people talk about "Turkey" being bad for a turbocharger. It is !!... :0)
Maybe you should....go do some research, and not just reflect on your own previous writings.
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Fact1: Stock BPV is correctly placed.
Fact2: Outlet plumbing is neither to small or restrictive.
Fact3: GT2554R is hardly too large for an MSP.
Fact4: The flutter is barely audible on a stock set up and is only amplified with a CAI yet produced only under rapid gear shifts.
Believe what you want but listen to the manufacturer of the turbo that came with the car. Its not worth arguing or debating over.
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/faqs.html#t9
What is compressor surge?
The surge region, located on the left-hand side of the compressor map (known as the surge line), is an area of flow instability typically caused by compressor inducer stall. The turbo should be sized so that the engine does not operate in the surge range. When turbochargers operate in surge for long periods of time, bearing failures may occur. When referencing a compressor map, the surge line is the line bordering the islands on their far left side.
Compressor surge is when the air pressure after the compressor is actually higher than what the compressor itself can physically maintain. This condition causes the airflow in the compressor wheel to back up, build pressure, and sometimes stall. In cases of extreme surge, the thrust bearings of the turbo can be destroyed, and will sometimes even lead to mechanical failure of the compressor wheel itself.
Common conditions that result in compressor surge on turbocharger gasoline engines are:
Fact2: Outlet plumbing is neither to small or restrictive.
Fact3: GT2554R is hardly too large for an MSP.
Fact4: The flutter is barely audible on a stock set up and is only amplified with a CAI yet produced only under rapid gear shifts.
Believe what you want but listen to the manufacturer of the turbo that came with the car. Its not worth arguing or debating over.
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/faqs.html#t9
What is compressor surge?
The surge region, located on the left-hand side of the compressor map (known as the surge line), is an area of flow instability typically caused by compressor inducer stall. The turbo should be sized so that the engine does not operate in the surge range. When turbochargers operate in surge for long periods of time, bearing failures may occur. When referencing a compressor map, the surge line is the line bordering the islands on their far left side.
Compressor surge is when the air pressure after the compressor is actually higher than what the compressor itself can physically maintain. This condition causes the airflow in the compressor wheel to back up, build pressure, and sometimes stall. In cases of extreme surge, the thrust bearings of the turbo can be destroyed, and will sometimes even lead to mechanical failure of the compressor wheel itself.
Common conditions that result in compressor surge on turbocharger gasoline engines are:
- A compressor bypass valve is not integrated into the intake plumbing between the compressor outlet and throttle body
- The outlet plumbing for the bypass valve is too small or restrictive
- The turbo is too big for the application
HondaEat-R
Member
I JUST GAVE YOU THE FACTS.
BOOSTR, you just quoted the same Garrett website that I did, but managed to leave out the stuff that I quoted from there.
#1- BPV IS placed correctly. You're right.
#2-The plumbing IS too small. Several people here, and elsewhere, have replaced stock BPVs, and increased the diameter of their outlet plumbing, and GUESS WHAT ?...No more cool Turkey noise. Almost magic, wouldn't ya say ?
#3- You're right, the gt25r is a fine size for this car.
#4-You're making me laugh right now. The fact that a CAI makes it more audible means that the noise was there to begin with, you just couldn't hear it as well before. Just because the car does that in stock trim, doesn't mean Mazda got it right and you should promote Turkey. I think we all know Mazda did a s*** job making these cars, and the only thing they got right was the body styling and suspension. True ignorance right there folks. Like turning the radio up so you you can't hear what's broken on your car. It's knowing something is F***** up, but saying " It was like that when I got it so, it must be right". Unreal.
The facts I stated are from Garretts website, conversations I've had w/ shops that work almost exclusively on turbo cars, experience, etc..
I just said that there are two kinds of "surge", learn to read. I know that the gt25r isn't too big for the MSP,...that's not the surge i'm referring to.
You guys continue to say things like "How do you explain the stock cars that have no problems for effen years?!?!? Since they are all having compressor surge their turbos should all be dead right?" -It's laughable honestly.
Nobody said that if you surge or turkey or dos, that you're turbo's going to die right then, or in the very near future. The point is, you're putting unneeded strain on your turbo, just so you can have a goofy little noise which is actually the sound of an inefficient BOV/BPV system.
Joe- get a life bro. RPM has never sold me a damn thing. Even if they did though, RPM is revered as one of the best East Coast tuning shops, recommended by many aftermarket companies as well as many people making 500+hp on 4 cylinders. I've done 99% of the work on all of my cars, and am not going to listen to some know-it-all. BTW, I've owned 5 turbo cars. I know, I know Joe, you were driving a turbo car in your mothers womb. Talk about BS.
Oh, and BTW, you contradicted yourself in the first part of you post :0)
Here, i'll show you because I'm a nice guy. You said : " The fins never get stopped, or even slowed down, really." THEN you say: " Compressor surge is when the compressed air tries to go back in the way it came out, or when the turbo is producing more boost than it can get out, and into the engine."
In the surge that I'm talking about, and have been talking about, if you don't have a good working BPV/BOV system, and you slam that throttle plate shut, the compressed air is trying to go back the way it came....just like you & I said... Your BOV/BPV should at that point "get rid of" (vent or recirc) a mass of air, thus reducing the amount of air that can "back up".
Now, you say that "When the BOV is re-directing the blown off compressed air (you know, recirculated) back into the CAI, or stock intake box, the excess, blown off air goes back into the intake tract, making the turkey sound, you are calling compressor surge."
That's funny because, the people that upgrade their BPV system properly, whether it be significantly larger outlet plumbing, or a totally new & efficient BPV to replace the stock one, and these people continue to recirculate...guess what ? No more turkey. What does that tell you boss ? Air being "injected" or "shot" back into the intake tube doesn't make Turkey noise, in fact, the purpose of that recirculation is to A) maintain proper air/fuel ratios, and B) to keep the turbo spooling to avoid lag. Why do you think a good BPV is one of the 1st mods a lot of (smart) people do to their turbo cars ? It's not for show because they're recirculating.... It's because the stock one is inefficient, and not working as it should.
Keep saying you hate ignorant people, because you've contradicted yourself more than once already. You're proving to be more ignorant than most anyone I've met on a forum. I may be a newb to MSPs, but I'm so far from a newb when it comes to cars. Bottom line once again...Turkey probably will NOT destroy your turbo in some short amount of time, BUT, it is the sign of a system not functioning properly, and should be addressed with action, not submission because you "Love the sound".
BOOSTR, you just quoted the same Garrett website that I did, but managed to leave out the stuff that I quoted from there.
#1- BPV IS placed correctly. You're right.
#2-The plumbing IS too small. Several people here, and elsewhere, have replaced stock BPVs, and increased the diameter of their outlet plumbing, and GUESS WHAT ?...No more cool Turkey noise. Almost magic, wouldn't ya say ?
#3- You're right, the gt25r is a fine size for this car.
#4-You're making me laugh right now. The fact that a CAI makes it more audible means that the noise was there to begin with, you just couldn't hear it as well before. Just because the car does that in stock trim, doesn't mean Mazda got it right and you should promote Turkey. I think we all know Mazda did a s*** job making these cars, and the only thing they got right was the body styling and suspension. True ignorance right there folks. Like turning the radio up so you you can't hear what's broken on your car. It's knowing something is F***** up, but saying " It was like that when I got it so, it must be right". Unreal.
The facts I stated are from Garretts website, conversations I've had w/ shops that work almost exclusively on turbo cars, experience, etc..
I just said that there are two kinds of "surge", learn to read. I know that the gt25r isn't too big for the MSP,...that's not the surge i'm referring to.
You guys continue to say things like "How do you explain the stock cars that have no problems for effen years?!?!? Since they are all having compressor surge their turbos should all be dead right?" -It's laughable honestly.
Nobody said that if you surge or turkey or dos, that you're turbo's going to die right then, or in the very near future. The point is, you're putting unneeded strain on your turbo, just so you can have a goofy little noise which is actually the sound of an inefficient BOV/BPV system.
Joe- get a life bro. RPM has never sold me a damn thing. Even if they did though, RPM is revered as one of the best East Coast tuning shops, recommended by many aftermarket companies as well as many people making 500+hp on 4 cylinders. I've done 99% of the work on all of my cars, and am not going to listen to some know-it-all. BTW, I've owned 5 turbo cars. I know, I know Joe, you were driving a turbo car in your mothers womb. Talk about BS.
Oh, and BTW, you contradicted yourself in the first part of you post :0)
Here, i'll show you because I'm a nice guy. You said : " The fins never get stopped, or even slowed down, really." THEN you say: " Compressor surge is when the compressed air tries to go back in the way it came out, or when the turbo is producing more boost than it can get out, and into the engine."
In the surge that I'm talking about, and have been talking about, if you don't have a good working BPV/BOV system, and you slam that throttle plate shut, the compressed air is trying to go back the way it came....just like you & I said... Your BOV/BPV should at that point "get rid of" (vent or recirc) a mass of air, thus reducing the amount of air that can "back up".
Now, you say that "When the BOV is re-directing the blown off compressed air (you know, recirculated) back into the CAI, or stock intake box, the excess, blown off air goes back into the intake tract, making the turkey sound, you are calling compressor surge."
That's funny because, the people that upgrade their BPV system properly, whether it be significantly larger outlet plumbing, or a totally new & efficient BPV to replace the stock one, and these people continue to recirculate...guess what ? No more turkey. What does that tell you boss ? Air being "injected" or "shot" back into the intake tube doesn't make Turkey noise, in fact, the purpose of that recirculation is to A) maintain proper air/fuel ratios, and B) to keep the turbo spooling to avoid lag. Why do you think a good BPV is one of the 1st mods a lot of (smart) people do to their turbo cars ? It's not for show because they're recirculating.... It's because the stock one is inefficient, and not working as it should.
Keep saying you hate ignorant people, because you've contradicted yourself more than once already. You're proving to be more ignorant than most anyone I've met on a forum. I may be a newb to MSPs, but I'm so far from a newb when it comes to cars. Bottom line once again...Turkey probably will NOT destroy your turbo in some short amount of time, BUT, it is the sign of a system not functioning properly, and should be addressed with action, not submission because you "Love the sound".
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HondaEat-R
Member
Viva la Turkey. It's so good.
Straight from "Modified Car Forums.com" Turbo Flutter explained.
"Ever wondered why or how you can make your turbo make that 'flutter' sound? It sounds great doesn't it?
The only problem is that this flutter is extremely unhealthy for your turbo. The flutter is caused when the throttle is shut and air caught betweent the free-spinning turbo and the closed throttle (when you have no vent ie blow-off valve).
The consequent back pressure forces the air back through the turbine blades. The more technical term for this is 'cavitation', which places enormous loads on the turbo and can or more than likely WILL lead to premature wear of the turbo bearings and other load-bearing components.
The simple fix is to simply fit a blow-off valve to your current setup or to make sure the blow-off valve you have selected is correctly matched to the output of the turbo and is working correctly (ie not outside its flow capacity).
So whilst it is a great sound and I absolutely love it myself, it pays to try and rid your system of that sound, unless of course you have deep pockets and don't mind forking out for new turbos prematurely."
Straight from "Modified Car Forums.com" Turbo Flutter explained.
"Ever wondered why or how you can make your turbo make that 'flutter' sound? It sounds great doesn't it?
The only problem is that this flutter is extremely unhealthy for your turbo. The flutter is caused when the throttle is shut and air caught betweent the free-spinning turbo and the closed throttle (when you have no vent ie blow-off valve).
The consequent back pressure forces the air back through the turbine blades. The more technical term for this is 'cavitation', which places enormous loads on the turbo and can or more than likely WILL lead to premature wear of the turbo bearings and other load-bearing components.
The simple fix is to simply fit a blow-off valve to your current setup or to make sure the blow-off valve you have selected is correctly matched to the output of the turbo and is working correctly (ie not outside its flow capacity).
So whilst it is a great sound and I absolutely love it myself, it pays to try and rid your system of that sound, unless of course you have deep pockets and don't mind forking out for new turbos prematurely."
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I'm getting even more enjoyment from your lack of reading comprehension skills. After reading were I stated,"Fact4: The flutter is barely audible on a stock set up and is only amplified with a CAI yet produced only under rapid gear shifts.", how the hell do you respond with you just couldn't hear it as well? Do you not understand what barely audible means?
kung fu hustle
Member
- :
- 1988 Mazda 323 GTX AWD
straight up agreeance with honda eat-r here. im telling you, from DSM to volvo to DAF, compressor surge is compressor surge, this isnt a made-up term, like it or not its a problem.
sure it wont "kill" the turbo (in eight times out of ten, in an LPT system like the MS guys use), but you all could be running so much more efficiently, with a proper pressure relief system. think about the logistics of the system.... without proper pressure relief, what's the snail doing?
i dont want to hear about seventeen-years-old-know-it-all garbage... i want you to think about where the pressure is going after you suddenly shut the throttle plate.
try me.
sure it wont "kill" the turbo (in eight times out of ten, in an LPT system like the MS guys use), but you all could be running so much more efficiently, with a proper pressure relief system. think about the logistics of the system.... without proper pressure relief, what's the snail doing?
i dont want to hear about seventeen-years-old-know-it-all garbage... i want you to think about where the pressure is going after you suddenly shut the throttle plate.
try me.
hmm, I have a blown stock turbo in my trunk that begs to differ about compressor surge not being an issue ;-)
the reason being: it ran fine with hardpipes and a hks bov for ages, without any turkey
however after going back to stock + injen cai it failed after one hard canyon run
coincidence? eh, no....and to those who are dismissing the HORRIBLY loud noise from the turkey as not being compressor surge, wow...just wow man
'why is my car making this horrendeously loud noise? hmm, it shouldnt be a problem... *shrugs*'
WTF???
compressor surge is compressor surge, no matter what car you have it on....mazda didn't do a lot of things right with this car (like the lsd, name 5 msp owners that haven't had it snap and I will be amazed...or the rods failing on a lot of them too)...just because its stock like that doesn't make it good for the car
the reason being: it ran fine with hardpipes and a hks bov for ages, without any turkey
however after going back to stock + injen cai it failed after one hard canyon run
coincidence? eh, no....and to those who are dismissing the HORRIBLY loud noise from the turkey as not being compressor surge, wow...just wow man
'why is my car making this horrendeously loud noise? hmm, it shouldnt be a problem... *shrugs*'
WTF???
compressor surge is compressor surge, no matter what car you have it on....mazda didn't do a lot of things right with this car (like the lsd, name 5 msp owners that haven't had it snap and I will be amazed...or the rods failing on a lot of them too)...just because its stock like that doesn't make it good for the car
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