Turing potential for P5? MP3?

[Nomad]

What's up guys and gals.

I'm researching various cars for their potential in the future. I'm interested in something with ok space, mainly 4 doors.
Has to have good tuning potential though. Have a few questions though:

How hard is it to squeeze out Horses from the 2.0 engines?
How much extra weight can be stripped off the MP5 readily?
How do these engines respond to N2O and turbo?
I'm not looking to dump a huge amount of cash into the car but I'd like to tune it up to a good level.
What sort of gains can be expected from turbo?
I see one person with higher compression pistons but it only has him up to 135 hp /145 tq or something... How much of a difference does that make in the speed and acceleration?

Lot of ?'s I know but I'm trying to do my research...
Peace,
N

 

[APEXistud]

Welcome to the board man. As far as Turbo goes, the FS seems to have gained quite a bit of torque just from adding 6 pound of boost www.fmprotege.com is still somewhat in the developmental stages of their kit. Although they are taking over production for the BEGI Kits which have already been sold to a few of our fellow members, FMProtege is looking to build a solid, bullet/idiot proof kit. Just like the ones they have on their Miata's. Spoolin is another member who can answer some questions for you since he was the first member to turbo his MP3 and he still to date has the highest HP & Torque from his MP3 on this board. There are a lot of damn good technical threads in the Forced Induction forum and I'd say that you'd be hard pressed not be able to answer all you questions by doin a search through that forum.

If you're looking for more information on NA, the fellow you spoke of with the pistons, is chdesign. You'd probably want to direct most of your NA question at him.

Good luck and welcome to our board, I hope you can find all the information that you're looking for.

 

[Tonpow]

They guy who's up to 135 hp is 135 at the wheels. Thats probably like 160-170 at the crank. His car is also a 1.8 which is even more impressive. Our cars are reletively light. 135 at the wheels is pretty fast.

 

[chdesign]

My car stock was 96 whp so I've jumped 40 hp at the wheels which is pretty good IMO the BEGI turbo kit on the 1.8L only made 120 whp at 5 psi so I'm doing better than turbo on teh 1.8L the Destroked 1.8L has different properties tahn the 2.0L though the destroked motor is better for NA apps so I could probably pull more NA than a 2.0L could but the stroke of the 2.0L is goign to kill me in turbo. that 135 whp number is an old number too I haven't gone to the dyno again with my header installed.......and despite how much I hate to say it I'm going to go on the bottle again just because I got the kit for like 100 bucks and i couldnt' pass it up but I'm only goign to spray a 50 shot on it and stay on the safe side.

 

[Captain KRM P5]

The dyno chart from FMprotege shows that a stock Protege5 has between 96 to 100 wheel horsepower. With the turbo and a catback exhaust system, the car gave out 167 wheel horsepower / 200 crank horsepower. This is at 6psi. When I up to 8psi or so I am definetely going for a dyno read. That is still a ways off however....

As to the weight question, I'm not really sure what you'd dump that would be of any real weight signifigance.

Don't go crazy on the magic bottle. There have been more than a few people here who have damaged thier engines thanks to overkilling on it.

 

[chdesign]

OH nO trust me the magical bottle will stay dormant most of the time its jsut for that pass down the strip or the occasional stop light to stop light....it will stay closed most of the time..

 

[Nomad]

Thanks for the responses.
Interesting info to say the least. I'd definitly look at the turbo option.
Like I said, I'm looking to pick up something that I can live with every day but also tweak enough to have fun.

I like N/A but I've been getting the itch for boost. I'd like to make the dive with my current car but I'm not sure that it will be the type of car I can still use when the kiddies come around... (coupe)

CHDesign - I was reading in Grassroots motorsports magazine last night and i realized that the N/A specs you have are actually impressive, I didn't know that that is a 1.8 either. Good work! Other than the fun gas what's next for you? What is your 1/4 time?

What sort of 1/4 time would be expected (documented yet?) from a 6 - 8 psi boost? I beleive that stock the P5 is around 16.9 - 17?

I like the twisties mostly but am enjoying the occasional run down the stright track.

 

[1sty]

What sort of 1/4 time would be expected (documented yet?) from a 6 - 8 psi boost? I beleive that stock the P5 is around 16.9 - 17?

I like the twisties mostly but am enjoying the occasional run down the stright track.

best guess is high 14's low 15s, with a well tuned system and a nice turbo exhuast. No ones run it yet with the turbo kit only a 1/8th mile. Godd be lower but That damn 1st-2nd shift will catch you everytime.

 

[Nomad]

So why is the 1-2 shift a problem? I've not test driven the P5 yet... Is the gearing too tall?

What's the max psi the stock internals will handle for occasional track runs? 6psi should be more than safe for every-day use on this engine right?

I know that I haven't looked in the tech forum like I need to yet but what is the stock compression? This engine has been called "de-tuned". How much so?

 

[1sty]

So why is the 1-2 shift a problem? I've not test driven the P5 yet... Is the gearing too tall?

What's the max psi the stock internals will handle for occasional track runs? 6psi should be more than safe for every-day use on this engine right?

I know that I haven't looked in the tech forum like I need to yet but what is the stock compression? This engine has been called "de-tuned". How much so?

The cars transmission is basicly garbage.
A 1st to 2nd shift will take at least a second if not more to go unless you gorrilla it in. Also the gears just jam up sometimes and don't take the shift. Aslo the clutch sucks when cold, the car will shutter and hop like a bastard.

The car can take no more then 10 PSI, even 8 is OK for average use.

The stock compression is around 9:1, exactly what it is i don't know.

 

[Nomad]

Well that tranny issue doesn't sound good at all!
Is it the syncros that suck or the whole thing? They break often?
A full second for 1-2 shift? I hope you are exaggerating a little. Short shift kits I'm assuming won't solve this problem since it's the internals that are off.
Any other car's tranny to swap it with or is this a new design?

The 626 has 5 speed models right? Same engine and tranny right? I ran into a fast one once, and this P5 has the same engine etc. What's the diff?

 

[1sty]

Well that tranny issue doesn't sound good at all!
Is it the syncros that suck or the whole thing? They break often?
A full second for 1-2 shift? I hope you are exaggerating a little. Short shift kits I'm assuming won't solve this problem since it's the internals that are off.
Any other car's tranny to swap it with or is this a new design?

The 626 has 5 speed models right? Same engine and tranny right? I ran into a fast one once, and this P5 has the same engine etc. What's the diff?

I wasn't exaggerating at all on the shift, sometimes its longer. Yes many people have had syncros replaced and someone has rebuilt there trany with a 626's parts. Can't remember who though.

A short throw does nothing. The only way to make it fast is to yank on it for all your worth, it will go in but you can feel things getting messed up from it. Basicly there are several pops when you do it.

The tranny is definitly the worst part of the car.

the 626 also has a v6 version, 2.5 liter.

 

[Nomad]

So the housings are different on the 626 tranny but the internals can be swapped?
Can the 626 V6 engine be swapped?
Did the V6 come with a manual?

Is this tranny problem being addressed by Mazda? Doesn't seem like their typical reputation is being kept here.

 

[1sty]

So the housings are different on the 626 tranny but the internals can be swapped?
Can the 626 V6 engine be swapped?
Did the V6 come with a manual?

Is this tranny problem being addressed by Mazda? Doesn't seem like their typical reputation is being kept here.

Some people had there trannies fixed under warrenty others were told it was from missuse and had to pay.

If memory serves yes the trannies of the 626 and protege are similair and some components can be shared, I am not knowledgable in this area just recalling old posts.

Some have speculated about swapping in the V6 but it would be that productive, its under powered too. Yes the V6 has a manual.

Becuase of our conversation I have emailed a few peole one the subjest to get there views and if there is anythingwe can do to improve the cars tranny. ie aftermarket.

From My knowledge has been a big bag of useless when it comes to the problems with the transmission in these cars. However I am positive they know it it terrible and franckly a means of embarasement. I couldn't imagine, Honda,Toyota or even Mits, releasing a car with a transmission this bad in it.

 

[Rogue_Biker]

The problem with the 1 to 2 shift is the gear ratios.

The gear ratio gap between 1st & 2nd is too big and the engine has to "re-climb" back up to high RPM when you go to second gear. That's really why the P5's 0-60 mph time is 9 seconds when it really should only be 8 seconds.

 

[1sty]

The problem with the 1 to 2 shift is the gear ratios.

The gear ratio gap between 1st & 2nd is too big and the engine has to "re-climb" back up to high RPM when you go to second gear. That's really why the P5's 0-60 mph time is 9 seconds when it really should only be 8 seconds.

How does this creat the problem that the car just doen't like going into second gear. Thanks for helping out on this one, I am well past my knowledge base on this one.

 

[Rogue_Biker]

How does this creat the problem that the car just doen't like going into second gear. Thanks for helping out on this one, I am well past my knowledge base on this one.

It's not that the car "doesn't like to go into second....". What some of the guys are saying is the snychronizers are a bit slow so the tranny doesn't like to be shifted fast. That ALSO slows your acceleration times.

The 1st to 2nd ratio gap problem has nothing to do with shifting speed. It does however slow the P5. Here's why: 1st gear gets the car off the line quickly and revs the engine up nicely but as soon as you shift to 2nd, the revs drop back below 4k, which is where the meat of the power starts. So now, you have to wait until the engine revs back up past 4k costing valuable 0-60 mph time. The ratio gaps between 2nd to 5th are all close so the revs don't drop that much and the car keeps its momentum going as you go through the gears.

 

[blynzoo]

Gotta disagree with you guys on this one.
Nomad, I own a p5 manual. My 1-2 shifts are as quick as the rest. The problem is shifting low in first. Shift above 5,000, and it's pretty much gravy. shift above 5,500 and you're having fun. I have installed a short/shifter in the car, and my shifts are extremely fast, without damaging it.

To answer the question more technically, we do in fact have a syncro issue. I have not taken my tranny apart yet, so it's one of two things. Either there is actually a manufacturing flaw where one of the parts is poorly machined, or the design of the synchros themselves is poor. This car shares the tranny with older 626's, and they do not have the same problems. The problem, for whatever reason, seems to pop up more with the MP3. The wagons have experienced far fewer problems. Another issue here is the "pudding" (as someone on this board best described it) motor mounts that only contribute to the wheel hop. Wheel hop also knocks your synchros out. everytime the wheels hop, you're hurting the cars ability to shift in the future.

OVerall, the wagon is undoubtedly the best car for the money, and the best in its class. Same can be said for the MP3 and upcoming (here, actually) Mazdaspeed Protege. If you are looking for STOCK straightline power, look somewhere else. But if you have the time to mod, this is the car for you.

For samples of a turbo'ed P5, look at WShade's videos in the Photo/Video section of the board. They'll give you a good idea of performance under boost. Also in there are pics of turbo setups, etc.

Any other questions, post 'em here or feel free to PM myself or anyone here, we're all good people.

Just my .02

 

[APEXistud]

I'd like to know where all you guys are getting this tranny stuff from. When I;ve shifted at the top of the rev limit in my MP3, it takes right back to where all the torque is. I've never had a problem shifting in my MP3 and I'm a very agressive driver. No matter what anyone tells you man. A short shifter will feel a lot better and might help in your shifting. I have yet to have a problem with my tranny, but my car only has 12000 miles on it. You'll be fine with a P5, MP3, or MSP. You can't lose either ay you go, the tranny is fine.

 

[1sty]

tell that to KurtMP3, he blew his out.