Mike, have you looked at the J&S Safeguard? I just don't trust an upgrade chip. I've heard too much talk about this ECU not accepting an upgrade chip. I've always been told that the ECU has to be totaly replaced to change timing via ECU. I just ordered my J&S safeguard for $525. It should be here next week.
Turbo Kits For Sale
- Thread starter Thxbrett
- Start date
We actually used to sell the J&S Safeguard. It does not help you if you have poor engine management. It also is very limited in what it will do to help safe guard from Knock. On a Rotary motor one good Ping and you will buying a new motor. Hence good engine management is critical. Make the car run better with good engine management and you will not need the knock guard. We have been selling a chip for the 93-95 RX7 for over 4 years with fantastic results. I am not sure why you would put your trust in a knock guard , but not in a reprogrammed ECU?? I know which one I would want on my own personal car.
Brett.
Brett.
You are right, but J&S has a new system out now. It's the ultra safeguard. It retards timing relative to boost, and retards even more if pinging is heard. You can program in theamount of retard per psi of boost. So in a way it is engine management, just without and fuel control. But I really don't think the MP3 needs fuel enrichment beyond an FMU. But everyone has their opinions. I'm not knocking your chip you are producing. I just want people to know their options. Are you sure the chip will work with the MP3's ECU?
mikesmazda155
Member
Thxbrett said:
Ok which safeguard would you use on your personal car.
I'm using the J&S Ultra Safeguard. I should get it next week. You should do your homework before you buy anything though. I'm using a 10:1 FMU. If I feel it is still running too lean, I'll get a recal kit and go with 12:1. But I believe the MP3 already runs very rich and only needs a little help with the enrichment. I'm only looking for about 190 to 220 hp though. If I were trying to get 240 and up like Spoolin, I'd go with additional injectors like him and Stou. But if you are using an intercooler, and an FMU, all you need is some type of timing control to go over 7psi. If I were you though, I would try to learn more about our ECU. I may be mistaken, but from what I've heard and read, our ECU isn't "chipable", meaning you cant do anything to the ECU but replace it completely with a reprogramed unit. If I wanted more hp, I'd go with a piggyback like spoolin's Link. Mine is also a piggyback, but it doesn't do anything to the fuel.
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Thxbrett said:
I'd agree with this. The factory ECU already changes timing if it detects knock, why do you need another one?
As for how the ECU works, Traveler has posted this before. The regular Protege runs really rich stock, and since the MP3 ECU supposedly dumps in more fuel than the stock Protege (look at the exhaust tip, mine is coated in crap), you probaly don't have to screw around any for low boost applications.
This is incorrect. Yes the MP3 ecu runs rich for stock applications. But jamming 6-8 psi of air into your motor changes everything. Our stock system does not have the capability to provide enough fuel for boost. The least you will have to to is add a 10:1 or 12:1 FMU.
Now for the J&S Knock sensor. This unit is awesome. I dont care what people say. Why would you want to rely on mazda's knock sensor
? Thats crazy. The J&S works in conjuction with the factory sensor and is the ultimate safegaurd device. Miata circles swear buy this unit and they often run high boost pressures. Yes as earlier stated this is not the greatest device to use on rotaries but thats a whole different beast. They are finicky, one good ping and there goes your apex seals.In determining which is better...the reprogammed ecu with injectors or a J&S unit. I think both used in conjunction with each other
The ecu is great but does not stand up to par with a properly tuned standalone system.
I think thexbrett's ecu upgrade is great. Big Ben on the other hand is also running a great setup. There are quite a few pro's running around with just an FMU. Although this is not the greatest method for overall power and saftey, Ben is taking it one step further by having absolute control over detonation. Why is this bad? I would rather spend the 500 beans and have piece of mind than relying on a factory system for ignition retard.
So my view is this.
If money is no object get a tec or haltech.
If money is of concern get the ecu(if its sctually possible to program one) and run a J&S.
If your broke like most of us hear....the minumum you should do is get an FMU and a J&S safegaurd.
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spoolinmp3 said:
Let the arguing begin...This isn't proven yet. The stock Protege 5 with the Bell Engineering kit uses a 10:1 FMU. That's it. Everything else is stock. It runs great from what I've heard. To be on the safe side, yes you rpobably would want to run the FMU on an MP3.
Now for the J&S Knock sensor. This unit is awesome. I dont care what people say. Why would you want to rely on mazda's knock sensor
If the J&S works with the stock sensor, why is it so much better?? It's probably using the stock sensor to know when to do something, unless it comes with its own sensor. I trust Mazda to know how to build and engineer their cars, the stock one should be jsut as good as the after market knock sensor.
In determining which is better...the reprogammed ecu with injectors or a J&S unit. I think both used in conjunction with each other
The ecu is great but does not stand up to par with a properly tuned standalone system.
I think thexbrett's ecu upgrade is great. Big Ben on the other hand is also running a great setup. There are quite a few pro's running around with just an FMU. Although this is not the greatest method for overall power and saftey, Ben is taking it one step further by having absolute control over detonation. Why is this bad? I would rather spend the 500 beans and have piece of mind than relying on a factory system for ignition retard.
So my view is this.
If money is no object get a tec or haltech.
If money is of concern get the ecu(if its sctually possible to program one) and run a J&S.
If your broke like most of us hear....the minumum you should do is get an FMU and a J&S safegaurd.
Yes you definatly would want to run an FMU on an MP3 unless you dont care about blowing motors. I am not trying to start a flame war here but..............
Mazda engineered these things for non-forced induction. Who knows how well they actually work. I am not second guessing the engineers at mazda but you are adding a whole new set of parameters to a car that were not there before.
When I said the J&S works in conjunction with the factory knock sensor....I meant it does not alter or hinder the stock ecu in any way. Also it does not use the stock sensor. The J&S knock sensor is very accurate and you can actually adjust the sensitivity on the unit. A microphone is embedded into the block and it senses the slightest amount of detonation and even senses predetenotation. This system has to be very accurate because its designed for F/I applications. Unlike the stock factory mazda sensor that was designed for retarding timing when running a bad tank of gas ect. So in reality the mazda detonation sensor cannot even begin to compare with the J&S unit.
To further prove my point various tuning shops such as X/S and toyomoto build very high hp cars (900-1200hp) Lance of toyomoto was experimenting with the factory knock sensors on the twin turbo supra and found that it did not always sense knock like the J&S. He would not trust a factory unit that came turbocharged over the J&S. So why would anybody trust the mazda factory ecu that was not even meant for boosted application.
ALSO the J&S retards timing per cylendar not just overall timing. It is so accurate and sensitive that it can retard timing in the cylendar that is detonating. This is a very accurate unit. I am not trying to down talk anyone here just merely stating the facts.
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spoolinmp3 said:
Not trying to start a flame war neither. The FS motor is supposed to be pretty robust, and I don't think a low boost (5-6 psi) application on a stock MP3 motor will blow anything. But, I'm not wanting to try.
The damn rods are the weak link. They cannot take more than 8-10 psi of boost.
I do agree.......if you plan on running 5psi than just a FMU is needed.
I do agree.......if you plan on running 5psi than just a FMU is needed.
We are well underway with our MP3 turbo chip and N/A chip. We will put a chip with the low boost kit that we are selling because that is the safe thing to do. I agree that most cars can "get away with" just runing a FPR on a very low boost kit. However we would like to have control over the drivability and safety of the motor a little more than just raising fuel pressure. If J&S has released a new model Knock guard then we may seriously take a look at it. Obviously if the engine management is taken care of the Knock guard is not as critical. A good EGT gauge and probe can be used as a reference as well. Thanks for the replies everyone.
Brett.
Brett.
About the factory knock unit that people are speaking of, from what I remember hearing about most NA applications is that the ECU just listens for knock. Once knock is detect, the ECU simply throws a code. Spoolin is correct when he says that the MP3 runs rich from the factory as almost all factory vehicles do. Anyhow, the factory ECU's don't actually retard timing all that well if they retard at all and it's definately something I wouldn't rely on.
Alright, spool jus tagged me so I'm jumping in here. The J&S actualy does use the stock know "sensor" lead. You just splice into it and the J&S works as a new sensor. So basicaly, it's like using the stock microphone or whatever the unit uses to listen for knock, then using the J&S which is a MUCH more sensative reciever. But I'm not just using the J&S simply as a safeguard, I'm using it for my timing control. I can tell the J&S to retard so many degrees at 4psi and below, then retard so many degrees at 4 to 6psi, then retard so many degrees at 6psi and up. Then if the unit senses any detonation, it will retard even more until it stops in order to save your motor. This is the advantage of the new J&S unit. There are tests and testimony on how it works at this site. Please visit it and it will explain how it works.
www.jandssafeguard.com or www.jandssafeguard.com/test
www.jandssafeguard.com or www.jandssafeguard.com/test
Thats wierd the J&S units that I am familiar with (miata unit) had its own knock sensor microphone that had to be installed or tapped into the block. Perhaps the new ultra unit you are talking about does not work this way. Regardless thats sweet that you will be able to make your own timing retard maps over the rpm band relative to psi. Kinda like a standalone system.
This post is so long. Just want quick and brief answers to these questions:
How much? ETA? Warranty/Liability coverage on the product?
Do you want to sell through distributors? If so lets get in touch so you cover your ass in the event of some end user mishap.
I'm interested, depending on how it finishes up and what's included.
Thanks, Rishie
Sorry for making you guys repeat yourselves.
How much? ETA? Warranty/Liability coverage on the product?
Do you want to sell through distributors? If so lets get in touch so you cover your ass in the event of some end user mishap.
I'm interested, depending on how it finishes up and what's included.
Thanks, Rishie
Sorry for making you guys repeat yourselves.
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big_ben said:
That's what I thought...
M2: With your chip, can you just program a safeguard in there so that it protects as well against knock as the J&S does?
Will your kit include a manual boost controller...so we can adjust the boost?
Warranty?
Tell us about the manifold..is it possible to use a 4-2-1?
Will your kit include a manual boost controller...so we can adjust the boost?
Warranty?
Tell us about the manifold..is it possible to use a 4-2-1?