Trouble shifting into 2nd

[rednofive]

had my car for about 9 months and now 12K miles.

today, I hit it hard in first and was at full WOT and when I went to get into 2nd, it wouldn't go in.

So I tried again while pretty heavy on the throttle/boost and kept the clutch down even longer and sure enough it made gear grind noise and I hadn't even let out yet.

I repeated this 4X throughout my drive.

I won't lie, I've missed 1->2 2x since I got the car, but that was last year and I haven't had this problem in the past 11K miles.

normal driving shifts, no problem...
clutch engagement point seems to still be about half way to 2/3 way up from the floor...

what am experiencing?
a week hydraulic line from clutch master to slave cylinder (possible air or leak)?
somehow I have damaged synchros?

other ideas?

car is at the dealer now for a tint job, so maybe I should have em go ahead and look her over...


or is this the reason a lot of folks buy a stiffer engine mount?

thanks

 

[HOBDisease]

Have you tried just sitting in a parking lot putting it in every gear?

 

[Darth Vader]

Stiffer mounts, however you do it, really help shifting this car. You might also have the shifter out of adjustment (there's a how-to here somewhere) or likely WCS, the clutch is starting to go.

 

[HOBDisease]

If the clutch is starting to go he'll have the same problem in all gears, fyi.

 

[Darth Vader]

Not true. He will likely have slippage problems in higher gears first but, it's not impossible to see difficult engagement in the high multiplication lower gears first as well. I've seen imminent clutch failure manifest as difficulty getting into one gear first MANY times on many different vehicles.

It's an unlikely prospect anyway, given the known shifting issues this car has and the relatively low mileage.

 

[HOBDisease]

Basic clutch/tranny diagnostic rule: if the problem only occurs in certain gear, then the clutch is out of the question; if the problem occurs in all gears, the clutch is likely to be at fault depending on the situation.

On top of that, "clutch slippage" due to higher torque multiplication will not likely cause grinding into a gear.

I've seen imminent clutch failure manifest as difficulty getting into one gear first MANY times on many different vehicles.

I have never seen that at work nor have other technicians.

 

[rednofive]

Have you tried just sitting in a parking lot putting it in every gear?

well, sitting at the light I pushed it around a bit with the clutch in and it felt as though I had to push a bit harder than usual to push it into all the forks.

That said, I was working the 1/2 and 3/4 forks the most while doing this at stoplights.

I did try some double-clutching, but it still felt a bit stiffer than usual.

 

[rednofive]

Not true. He will likely have slippage problems in higher gears first but, it's not impossible to see difficult engagement in the high multiplication lower gears first as well. I've seen imminent clutch failure manifest as difficulty getting into one gear first MANY times on many different vehicles.

It's an unlikely prospect anyway, given the known shifting issues this car has and the relatively low mileage.

what known shifting issues does this car have?
Is there a write-up somewhere I can look through?

thanks,

 

[Darth Vader]

I can't speak for your other technicians but, often customers report to me trouble with gear engagement, often single-gear first and an old, worn clutch and associated components are at fault.

Your basic rule is completely sound. I've just seen alot of weird s*** doing this car repair/modifying thing since 1981 or so.

This isn't really helping the OP, can we just call it a disagreement and leave it at that? This isn't likely the cause of his issue, as we both say.

 

[rednofive]

Basic clutch/tranny diagnostic rule: if the problem only occurs in certain gear, then the clutch is out of the question; if the problem occurs in all gears, the clutch is likely to be at fault depending on the situation.

On top of that, "clutch slippage" due to higher torque multiplication will not likely cause grinding into a gear.



I have never seen that at work nor have other technicians.

the car only has 12K miles, so it feels insane to even consider this, but...

remind me, if the shifter is in neutral and I let out the clutch pedal and hear a bit of whirring noise, is that indicative of anything?

doesn't that mean something about the throwout bearing, release lever or hydraulics of the clutch???

thx,

 

[HOBDisease]

the car only has 12K miles, so it feels insane to even consider this, but...

remind me, if the shifter is in neutral and I let out the clutch pedal and hear a bit of whirring noise, is that indicative of anything?

doesn't that mean something about the throwout bearing, release lever or hydraulics of the clutch???

thx,

I know the noise you're hearing because I hear that as well but it's nothing to be worried about so you're fine. The known shifting issue of this car is the motor mounts being too soft thus allowing the engine to move around too much, and when it does that, sometimes it's difficult to shift especially when you're doing a run. 2-3 misshifts are notorious in some of them.

 

[axisboldaslove]

either that or it's time to replace ur 2nd gear synchro and bearing hub

 

[rednofive]

I know the noise you're hearing because I hear that as well but it's nothing to be worried about so you're fine. The known shifting issue of this car is the motor mounts being too soft thus allowing the engine to move around too much, and when it does that, sometimes it's difficult to shift especially when you're doing a run. 2-3 misshifts are notorious in some of them.

So I'm curious, do you speak from personal experience?
Did you experience similar occasional difficulty with 1-2 or 2-3 shifts and then find, after replacing the motor mount with a harder aftermarket unit, that getting into and out of the gates was easier after the mod?

 

[rednofive]

cold vs warm weather affect the stiffness of the engine mount?

Anyone noticed if this problem is worse in warmer weather than in cooler/cold weather?

Truth is that I bought my MS3 last September and I didn't hit it hard or do any runs until October or later so yesterday really was one of the first 85-90F days that I tried doing a run and I'm wondering if the warmer rubber on the mount was causing something that normally isn't a difficult shift...

 

[BrianFiebig]

I have always felt that the shifter was a little...lets say truckish. Your shifts have to be deliberate. The stock notchiness requires it. I have found that going 1->2 has to be a two step process, pull it out against the notch, then pull it in against the second notch. Only problems I have had going 2->3 is if I was romping on it and tried to come off the clutch too fast. Never an issue into 4, but like going to 2, going to 5 requires paying attention to the movement and the notches.
I would ASSUME that going to a short shifter with upgraded bushings would solve most of the problems, but I have never done a shifter, havent seen a how-to for a short shifter, so it has me a little skittish. Other problem I have with a short shifter is angles, distances, and driving position, I'm not sure I would be able to reach 5 without screwing with my seat, which I REALLY dont want to do.

 

[Darth Vader]

The whirring noise is the throwout bearing and isn't a problem unless it suddenly changes in volume or note.

The car is very "truckish" in cold weather. Synthetic trans fluid like MT-90 helps this but, it's still pretty thick stuff and takes a while to wake up.

Shifting issues ARE mainly due to crap motor mounts but also due to the fact that it's a cable shifter, which generally aren't the most precise on earth. VW fought this for years and, still does. Mazda compensates by putting weights on the shift arm and a heavy shift knob on the car, to make the shifter feel more positive. Jackleg solution that, in my humble opinion. I find the shifter alright. A tough trans like this one will be more difficult to make shift nicely.

 

[HOBDisease]

So I'm curious, do you speak from personal experience?
Did you experience similar occasional difficulty with 1-2 or 2-3 shifts and then find, after replacing the motor mount with a harder aftermarket unit, that getting into and out of the gates was easier after the mod?

No I'm not speaking from experience regarding the mounts because I still haven't replaced mine yet but many owners did have problems shifting with the factory mounts and after they replaced them with stiffer ones from manufacturers such as CPe and TRZ they claimed that it indeed helped quite a bit. By installing stiffer mounts you reduce the amount of movement the engine has inside the engine bay. As with stiffer mounts go, it should and will increase noise and vibrations, but many owners that installed stiffer mounts commented that the noise and vibrations were noticeable but weren't something they could not live with.

 

[GoFast]

i have never really had an 1-2 issue, but had a 2-3 issue. It was slightly more in colder weather. I tried the stiffer tranny mount and that helped but i still would mis the 2-3 every now and then. I removed the counter weight after that and havent missed a 2-3 since(20k+ miles) I even went back to the stock tranny mount about 18k miles ago too.

 

[rednofive]

Thanks all.

Interesting.
yeah, I made the post because I'd never really had a problem with 1-2 as much as 2-3 either.

getting into 3 I noticed early on, but 1-2 was new so that's why I made the post.

Since this thread started, I haven't had a problem with 1-2 and think it must've been that I was in a hurry that night and was power-shifting, which I've never really done in this car.

I'll keep to being a patient shifter and consider the engine mount mod for the future.

anyone know if there is already a write-up online that gives me an idea of how much work it is? I've heard it mentioned it is pretty easy.