This makes my blood boil!

What irks me is people that buy American simply because it is American. Not because it is better, just because its American. I believe GM and Chrysler are trying to appeal to the older generation, who are still loyal to them. The problem is, if you want fairly good reliability and quality, you have to spend quite a bit of money, like the Corvette, Charger/Challenger RT/SRT-8 and the commercial duty trucks.

Us younger people don't make that much money, but we can afford a pocket rocket that comes fairly loaded for around $22,000. Yes, there is the Cobalt SS, but its got the interior of a rental car.
 
average pay of non union honda assembly line worker - 15.79 (adjusted for us dollars)

Average pay of unionized GM assembly line worker - 31.09 ( not including the ridiculously good health, vision, and dental benifits)


Unions making life better for everyone - Priceless

visa its every where you want to be......wait......o well

just to clarify i agree with OP and contrary to what the unions have done to help my family i dont support there legal rape of many large and small american businesses! well this is bound to draw some good remarks. Yah
 
Last edited:
The right thing to do is the more painful thing to do upfront. But if we fix the system we wont be here again in another 15-20 years.

Edit: I back everything Silver Ecstasy says, and want him to help me lead an angry mob to burn down the headquarters of GM and Chrysler.

The worst part about this entire situation is...

No one really knows, or realizes any of this. They only see it (atleast in the metro Detroit area) as "poor us, that sucks, why won't people support us? Why won't people buy our cars?" Even an anonymous GM exec leaving the Ren Cen was interviewed one evening leaving and he goes "I'd sure like to ask all those people driving Japanese cars how they feel when we don't have a job!" Are you kidding buddy???

And when WE buy foreign, people look at us as unpatriotic or "not rooting for the home team" since we bought against what we grow lol. All the meanwhile, they don't take a second to realize that the s*** they are making is just pure, utter, garbage.

My dad has been doing auto-body work for the past 30 years. Bought GM his entire life. Each GM car failed and failed more miserably and earlier in it's lifespan as the car's got newer. Finally, his current GM car is his last one. He has a 2002 Chevy Suburban and the transmission just blew up without warning. He literally was fed up and wrote them off forever. He already sees the shittiness when he tears cars down and puts them back together but to continue to have it happen to him over and over, he couldn't take it anymore. He used to brag to his friends about how me and my gf both bought Mazdas and we freakin LOVE them!

My mom has had nothing but Ford Explorers (starting in 92) and they were all pieces of s***, one after the other. Each one got traded in when the repairs kept getting too expensive to justify. When it came time to buy a real nice car for her, something with a bit of luxury and style to it, I recommended the Mazda CX-7 GT AWD. She said "I will NOT drive a foreign car". She has no connections to the Big 3 other than her friend who is a Ford salesperson. But she felt it affected her image with Real Estate. Meanwhile her entire OFFICE drives BMW and M-B. Is that okay since they cost significantly more and are fantastic automobiles? I don't know, so she opted for a 2009 Lincoln MKX (Built on the same platform as the CX-7, and it's build in Canada hehe). She got every useless option you could imagine. Gigantic window for a roof that retracts (She never uses it). She got every feature but somehow her dumb ass friend lets her get it without HID. Regardless, the thing is a big turd, it's slow, it's heavy, it has humongous brake pedal travel and she paid about $13k MORE for it just because it's a Lincoln.

Now, like I said, I like Ford and give them a lot more respect nowadays..but let's look at the numbers:

CX-7 GT AWD $30,000
60-0 Braking: 116 ft. (my mom does a ton of stop and go driving and she's a lead foot to boot)
It can do everything the MKX can except tow s*** (we don't tow anything). The CX-7 gets all of it's peak HP and TQ in mid RPM with the help of the turbo. And it handles like a sports car with fantastic braking and suspension.

Lincoln MKX Ultimate $45,000
60-0 Braking: 168 ft.
Peak HP and TQ? Redline. Average to most people NEVER redline their car. They think they're "going to break something" LOL, Words straight from people. "Don't do that, you're going to **** up your car man!" LMFAO. You're right, we really shouldn't do that in your Malibu, the mirror might fall off and the engine will surrender from the torture!!

You can feel it too because it's that un-inspiring feel when you see the stop light and you press the brakes but nothing happens until you're almost to the light and you have to slam on it.

I don't mean to go off on a tangent but my God people. They need to wake up! But the point is, they won't because they never have to keep the cars long enough to realize what piss-poor quality they really are made of. And that's why they point the finger at the bad guys (us apparently). And talk about a lack of ingenuity or design (basically, they stretch the s*** out of old technology as long as they can), I had a 94 Grand Am and a 03 Grand Am. They both used the same pushrod V6 3.1 and 3.4 and they both had the EXACT transmissions only with minor tweaks. Both were sluggish, both had manifold gasket breakdowns (which cost $1400 each time, to repair and flush the coolant otherwise your oil sloshes with coolant and your oil pump dies, so will the engine). Oh and my 05 GTO? Short lived: Lemon Law. My 07 TBSS had ZERO problems. Oh wait..., rear end had to be replaced for grinding, rear air suspension continously went out of alignment and the air sensors had to be re-adjusted otherwise the right side of the car would sag, and my power steering pump was on the verge of blowing up. Search it up, it's known problems. And last time I checked, how the HELL does a brand new car blow out taillight and headlight bulbs every 3 months? I see more Tahoes and Yukons driving around with one taillight or headlight day time running bulb out than I do OLDER cars with older technology lol.

I'll tell you what though, if I had a family and needed a family car, I'd TOTALLY be buying a Ford Flex with the V6 TT EcoBoost and AWD! "Honey, why's the car louder when I push the gas?" Me: (dance)
 
Last edited:
I promise that the day one of the big 3 kicks out a car that is just as good or better for the same price as my car, I will buy it! I gave the Cobalt SS a chance, but one look inside was all it took. Performance is on par with the MS3, but the MS3's interior is so much better quality a comfort.
 
Being from a family who has big ties in the Big 3, as well as living in the hotbed of domestic automakers, this really hits home.

I've been able to drive several different cars that would be damn close to our Mazdas and there isn't much for the price that compares. People rant and rave about Honda, but lately, the group of Honda owners I know seem to have more trouble than the Mazda owners or Ford owners for that same timeframe.

When I bought my MS6, the other car I was looking at was a 2008 Mustang Bullitt. I would have bought one if it wasn't for the $3,000 markup over sticker. Nothing against my MS6 (I love it), but it was the dealer that killed that sale.

Another problem people forget about is dealer networks. Why is it necessary to have 30+ dealerships in the Metro Detroit area for Ford, Chrysler, and GM, and only 5-10 Honda, Mazda, Toyota dealerships in the same area?

GM needs to cut the fat, Chrysler needs to stop building outdated trash, and Ford needs to continue on the path they're on. Wait until 2012 and we'll see a dramatically different lineup from Ford and GM both, hopefully the latter will bring a competitive lineup to the table and improve the domestic automakers in the long run.
 
I promise that the day one of the big 3 kicks out a car that is just as good or better for the same price as my car, I will buy it! I gave the Cobalt SS a chance, but one look inside was all it took. Performance is on par with the MS3, but the MS3's interior is so much better quality a comfort.

well, the malibu is "SUPPOSED" to be that car..
 
I see buying the MS3 as being supportive of america. It is based off of the focus platform and ford still owns stock in mazda. American cars will never be as up to par with the foreign products. Even the newer GM cars are still s*** boxes. I work for an acura dealership for a large penske owned automall. We are right nextdoor to the malls Chevy dealership. We are slow right now because the damn cars won't break :) and I watch tons of new and older GM shitboxes get dragged into the chevy dealer on the backs of flatbeds. Even the interiors of the corvettes are rental car quality. Cheap as plastics the rattle a squeek over every bump. They should have let them operate under chapter 11 and let them void the union contracts and legacy contracts for all former management that are still collecting large pensions and medical benefits, that is where a majority of the money they piss away every month goes to....just my 2cents
 
average pay of non union honda assembly line worker - 15.79 (adjusted for us dollars)

Average pay of unionized GM assembly line worker - 31.09 ( not including the ridiculously good health, vision, and dental benifits)


Unions making life better for everyone - Priceless

visa its every where you want to be......wait......o well

just to clarify i agree with OP and contrary to what the unions have done to help my family i dont support there legal rape of many large and small american businesses! well this is bound to draw some good remarks. Yah

if you are being sarcastic, then great... unions are horrible for eveyone...(i can't tell if you are or not)

if you are saying that unions are good, then, you think it is GOOD to pay UNSKILLED and UNEDUCATED people $30 bucks an hour for doing a job that was originally intended for people who had minimum skill, and required minimum training?

that job DOES suck, but my god, $30 and hour to do what, screw in some bolts? thats why there bottom line is s***... people can live off of $15 an hour... might be be able to live as well, but if two people combined are making $30 an hour in a relationship, that is MORE than doable.. no need to pay incompetent people $30 bucks an hour... its not like its a "skilled position"
 
While I think the unions are out of control and should be willing to renagotiate its contracts in the light of times are tough right now. You haveto understand that the union workers make what they make because the companies agreed to it during the negotiations. It is the companies fault they are making 30 dollars an hour not the unions. You can't fault the union for what the workers make if the company is willing to agree to pay it. The union probrably could have asked for 40 dollars an hour if they thought the company would have agreed to it. In fact they probrably did and then settled on 30 dollars when the company offered it. To call the workers unskilled is not right. I am union does that make me unskilled. I am also the shop stewart for the shop I work in and just re-negotiated our contracts last year. We started high on what we wanted and worked it out somewhere in the middle thats how it works. It is ultimately up to both parties to agree whether or not the contract is fair. Where the big three screwed up is they did not invoke a no strike clause this gives the unions more power then they should have. To call a worker unskilled is just not right it is the companies fault for accepting the contract the way it was that the worker makes as much as they do. Shame on the companies for not being skilled enough to negotiate a better contract up front.
 
Almost all these problems can be attributed to the UAW. Too many benefits, and too much money for the work performed. I don't make as much as some assembly line production workers, and I am a regional sales manager for a very large company. To me that just doesn't make sense.

I couldn't agree more. I have an engineering degree. I work just as hard as the guys any union. My job is not guaranteed, nor is my pay. If I fail to meet my job requirements, now or ever, I loose it. This is not the case nor should it be for most of us. My pay goes up with experience, but so does my performance.

The unions on the other hand get pay raises per their contract or they strike. It doesn't matter if performance increases or not. Advancing can be hard as the better jobs go to the most senior employees, not the most qualified. And god to work at a union job you are forced to join and pay dues? What kind of ****** up system is that?

lol like its the unions fault, GM makes cars the majority doesn't want. Bashing the union who in fact lets people live better lives is a joke ....dont like unions? Try being in one, your mind will change damn quick. Remember ...not everyone shares your OPINION

Actually the unions have alot to do with the current failure. Line workers making $70+ and hour? Life time benefits and pensions? The big 3 are paying out the nose for their labor.

I owned my own franchise for about 5 years while i was in college. I can say for a fact that labor is your biggest cost by FAR. Insurance, social security, taxes. For every dollar I paid my employees it actually cost me $1.34-$1.40. That means if someone was making $8.00.hour it actually cost me $10.72/hour. Even with some of my employees making as low as $8.00 per hour, labor was easily 50% of my cost by the end of the day. If someone performed better, I paid them more. If they couldn't cut it, I fired them. Simple.

just to clarify i agree with OP and contrary to what the unions have done to help my family i dont support there legal rape of many large and small american businesses! well this is bound to draw some good remarks. Yah

I get there are some companies that mistreat their employees. I get that. But lets face it. Many unions have grown out of control, and now are victimizing the companies. The fact of the matter is they go against the capitalist way.

My shining example was the s*** head janitor at my school. I lived on a floor where the janitor was supposed to come in and clean once a week. If we were lucky he would come in once a month! Usually it was every 6 weeks. We complained over and over. The guy just never showed up for work and the school couldn't fire him because he was part of a union and was protected. EVEN THOUGH HE SKIPPED WORK FOR WEEKS ON END. Worse yet they couldn't hire anyone else to pick up for his slack. Two years later I lived in the same building again and the dumb **** was still there doing the same thing.

I have seen the same thing time and time again. At our current company we have times when our shop shuts down because the union needs to re-negotiate something or another. Meanwhile nuclear power plants are not getting the SAFETY equipment they need to operate. My company pays well, and gives decent benefits. There is no need for a union.


But with all this talk on unions I want to clarify, this is not the only thing dragging down the big 3. Like I said I had no faith in them when I went looking for cars, and didnt test drive a single american car. I think their whole system is flawed. LAst time I checked ford had about 7 SUVs to choose from. REALLY? Is that necessary? The fact that the big 3 are slow to adapt to market trends, and don't offer a much variety while maintaining quality has had a lot to do with their failure as well. Im not sure why so many people think giving them 15 billion is going to change their mindset.

And BTW. Its not un-patriotic to buy a foreign car. It is in fact very patriotic. Our country was founded on the ideals of freedom of choice and our capital system is founded on the idea that companies fend for themselves, and the dollar goes to the guy with the best product! So buy whatever moves you. Buy whatever you choose, you have the FREEDOM to make that choice! Buy whatever gives you the best bang for your buck!
 
Last edited:
Also be careful... union issues are usually a lot more complicated than meet the eye so we shouldn't blindly blame the unions for expensive GM cars.

I'm in a teacher's union and teacher salaries are often attacked, but similar to this issue it is a lot more complicated than it seems.
 
And BTW. Its not un-patriotic to buy a foreign car. It is in fact very patriotic. Our country was founded on the ideals of freedom of choice and our capital system is founded on the idea that companies fend for themselves, and the dollar goes to the guy with the best product! So buy whatever moves you. Buy whatever you choose, you have the FREEDOM to make that choice! Buy whatever gives you the best bang for your buck!

TRUTH!
 
While I think the unions are out of control and should be willing to renagotiate its contracts in the light of times are tough right now. You haveto understand that the union workers make what they make because the companies agreed to it during the negotiations. It is the companies fault they are making 30 dollars an hour not the unions. You can't fault the union for what the workers make if the company is willing to agree to pay it. The union probrably could have asked for 40 dollars an hour if they thought the company would have agreed to it. In fact they probrably did and then settled on 30 dollars when the company offered it. To call the workers unskilled is not right. I am union does that make me unskilled. I am also the shop stewart for the shop I work in and just re-negotiated our contracts last year. We started high on what we wanted and worked it out somewhere in the middle thats how it works. It is ultimately up to both parties to agree whether or not the contract is fair. Where the big three screwed up is they did not invoke a no strike clause this gives the unions more power then they should have. To call a worker unskilled is just not right it is the companies fault for accepting the contract the way it was that the worker makes as much as they do. Shame on the companies for not being skilled enough to negotiate a better contract up front.

i'm not calling union workers unskilled, i am calling assembly line workers unskilled... all the skilled aspects of an assembly line are now down by robotics. I.E. all the welding etc etc. the put the car together and bolt it down... that is a unskilled job. sorry if it offends anyone, but that's just the truth.
 
I'm in a teacher's union and teacher salaries are often attacked, but similar to this issue it is a lot more complicated than it seems.

The teacher's union is one of the biggest abominations out there. They have many of the same problem as the UAW; Teachers paid regardless of performance level, teachers deemed unfit to teach getting paid sitting in a "rubber room", etc.

Don't even get me started on the schooling system and teacher's union in this country. My daughter will only be homeschooled or at a private school.
 
I have to agree that the problem lies with the union here. The unions are what sunk GM, if they weren't so greedy they'd still be afloat. Look at it this way, would you rather take a paycut for a little while, or be unemployed entirely? Sounds simple to me, but the union idiots can't get it through their heads that if they don't take a paycut, they may not have a job in a few weeks.
 
I have to agree that the problem lies with the union here. The unions are what sunk GM, if they weren't so greedy they'd still be afloat. Look at it this way, would you rather take a paycut for a little while, or be unemployed entirely? Sounds simple to me, but the union idiots can't get it through their heads that if they don't take a paycut, they may not have a job in a few weeks.

ding ding ding...

their is the fact of the pension plans, and the executives getting ridiculous amounts of money, but that is tiny compared to the 30/hr labor rate for assembly line workers
 
Silver, are you aware of the UAW and adverse effect its had on the auto industries?

I'm humble enough to answer honestly: No.

Quite honestly, I've never really bothered to research or understand it entirely. But I do understand this much, they reason the union exists is to prevent job loss from the decisions of the employer correct?
 
I'm humble enough to answer honestly: No.

Quite honestly, I've never really bothered to research or understand it entirely. But I do understand this much, they reason the union exists is to prevent job loss from the decisions of the employer correct?

in theory, yes maybe, but in practice no... unions got greedy. they were formed initial to prevent job loss. However, once they were formed they realized they couldn't be fired. Then demanded more money or they would go on strike.(because they couldn't get fired) and got more money. The big three had there hands tied. in a round about way.
 
Back