The Ultimate Debate!!!!!

[tgv121281]

Ok, I know it's probably been beaten to death, and please don't give me too much slack for this, but which is the best way to go for Forced Induction???
Turbo or Super.....

I'm not gonna post a poll b/c thats just gonna get lame...REather, I'd love to hear your answers AND more importantly WHY.

Here's where I stand, and keep in mind, I'm a newbie(one of the reasons I'm starting this) looking for some info. I dont expect for anyone to be able to TELL me, which to go with...but I do expect to learn quite a bit.

I know the difference between the 2(how they are driven, pulley vs. exhaust), I know the difference in power band(super= always on, turbo=spool up), and I know the difference in dialing in boost(changing pulleys vs. boost controller).....There's a few other things that I understand pretty well...but thats the most of it...

And from what I can tell I'm leaning towards Superchraging b/c it's power on demand...and I figure I can add on some NOS later if needed.......Figuring I can get the advantage off the line and then juice it to keep the advantage once the other cars turbo kicks in.....However, the debate continues b/c the 3 is FWD, meaning that I'm gonna lose lots of time/traction off the line w/ the power....So I guess I should say that I'm really 50/50 on it, but would rather go Supercharger to take advantage of the on demand power....IF the rest of the negatives can be overcome.....

I know that most of the Import scene is dedicated to Turbo, and the domestics really stick w/ super....But I'm thinking a S/C would be the way to go...that said, "Let's get it on"!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[SNike05]

And from what I can tell I'm leaning towards Superchraging b/c it's power on demand...and I figure I can add on some NOS later if needed.......Figuring I can get the advantage off the line and then juice it to keep the advantage once the other cars turbo kicks in

Just like yourself I don't know enough to put in any legitimate argument. I don't have either nor do I prefer one over the other but that statement doesn't sound right to me. Lets see what others have to say.

 

[saskmazdaman11]

Turbo

I figure use the turbo, because that exhaust is leaving the engine anyways, might as well use the energy. Turbo development has also come along from what I have seen, so lag and some disadvantages of turbos have been decreased. I don't know, the supercharger kinda seems like a catch 22. Use the power of the engine to increase the power of the engine. Turbos aren't getting something for free, but the parasitic power loss of the supercharger just sits wrong with me. And like you said, the tuner world is geared towards the turbo, so when in Rome....

 

[ZeroAccess]

Turbo = Adjustability, Free Power (comes from exhaust)
Supercharger = More Reliable Generally, Uses Engine to turn belts to turn compressor to add HP back into the car. Some people complain about losing power before gaining it.

Turbo's normally make more power or are able to produce more power without being updated SO much
Superchargers normally make a lot of power all over the powerband and need pulley's replaced to increase or decrease power

Expect to get a lot of heated debates over this the best way to gain knowledge would be look at Honda's Jackson Racing,Vortech Superchargers and compare them to the Turbo vehicles. Since the only Supercharger for the Mazda Protege is still in beta testing (almost done).

 

[M3 5MT]

I've always figured that a supercharger was not a good idea in a low-low-end torque four cylinder car. They work well in american big block V8's because the gain in power is extremely offset by the loss. I dont think our VVT will make up for the initial powerloss caused by a supercharger. Go Turbo.

 

[saskmazdaman11]

Small Blocks love the turbo

Do blowers and superchargers go with american muscle like chips and salsa? You bet, but check out

http://www.bankspower.com/Tech_twinturbo.cfm

A small block chevy with twin turbos and 15 psi of boost.

I think I can shoe horn it in the 3 and run 1000 hp through a transaxle.

 

[tgv121281]

Zero & Sask-That makes some sense, I just wish I could get a real idea of how much power you lose...b/c I just cant get over the idea of having to wait for a turbo to spool....and I hear what you're saying about designs gettin better and better....but, the best design cant make it just go away right?

Another question, I've heard that alot of people use staged NOS at lower rpm's and time it so that the NOS is only there till the turbo spools then its gone, the turbo gives you the boost and poof no lag....Questions on this...1-is this a real scenario or a dream, 2-possible on our cars??, 3-if you use NOS like this, can you/should you still use it after the turbo is going???

Also, this may be a REAL lame question, but from what I can see the superchrager is always making power....and the turbo needs time to spool..but what happens after it spools up??? Is it then continuous power until you basically stop and then the process starts again??? Or is it basically every time you let off the throttle(shifting gears, etc...) it'll take some time to spool up???? AND if it does take time even after shifting gears, its alot less time then if you were stopped, like at a light right??? Just trying to get an idea.....

 

[anarchistchiken]

the gain in power is extremely offset by the loss.

What???

I like superchargers myself because it eliminats the risk of boost spikes that can blow engines. Centrifigul blowers are also a lot easier on the tranny of the car because they give a more gradual increase in power (psi rises with the RPM) as opposed to the turbo, where the thing spools up and BAM, instant power. It's a bigger shock to the tranny and the engine. The biggest problem for mazda car's when drag racing has always been the transmission more than the engine, and unless you 3 guys have a wildly upgraded transmission, I wouldn't even think about running a combination of turbo or supercharger with nitrous (not NOS, NOS is a company, Nitrous Oxide Systems) because to run that combo and get the power off the line you're talking about, you would have to be running some big, VERY sticky tires. High end drag radials at least, possibly slicks, to take advantage of that power. And the problem with running slicks with a high powered engine is that the power has to go through the transmission. And when the tires aren't spinning, the power the engine is making is going to the transmission. So no wheels spin + lots of power = LOTS of strain on the transmission.

 

[anarchistchiken]

Also, this may be a REAL lame question, but from what I can see the superchrager is always making power....and the turbo needs time to spool..but what happens after it spools up??? Is it then continuous power until you basically stop and then the process starts again??? Or is it basically every time you let off the throttle(shifting gears, etc...) it'll take some time to spool up???? AND if it does take time even after shifting gears, its alot less time then if you were stopped, like at a light right??? Just trying to get an idea.....

Think of it this way; a turbo is driven by the exhaust gasses passing through the engine, so the more exhaust leaving your engine (more fuel and air going in, more open throttle) the more the turbo is gonna spool. So when you have no exhaust leaving the engine (no throttle) then the turbo wont spool. When you're cruising, the turbo will spool just a little, depending on what RPM you're at. And at WOT, it's gonna be spooling a lot. Once you're rpms are high enough and you're WOT, then you will begin making positive pressure (boost). But you can let off the throttle, exhaust gasses will stop flowing, and the turbo will wind down again. You see what I'm sayin?

 

[tgv121281]

I think so, if I'm understanding than the example i gave below is pretty much right....If you're taking off from the light...Biggest Lag, If you're between shifts-little lag....
Also, I do plan on taking it to the track, but this will be mostly a daily driver....Weekday cruising, Weekend warrior.....type of thing....So I dont think I'm gonna have that much power going in there...but I do understand what you're saying...I plan to update the internals and the transmission(at least clutch/flywheel)....think that'll be enough???

So is anyone working on a S/C fo r the 3's???

 

[mobomelter]

I just wish I could get a real idea of how much power you lose...b/c I just cant get over the idea of having to wait for a turbo to spool....

from what i've picked up from reading about turbos, is that if the right turbo is paired with the right engine lag is pretty much eliminated. in your line of thinking, you could buy a sti or evo and still have lag which is not the case. sure they might lag a tiny bit but once again from what i've read you don't notice it.

 

[anarchistchiken]

I think so, if I'm understanding than the example i gave below is pretty much right....If you're taking off from the light...Biggest Lag, If you're between shifts-little lag....
Also, I do plan on taking it to the track, but this will be mostly a daily driver....Weekday cruising, Weekend warrior.....type of thing....So I dont think I'm gonna have that much power going in there...but I do understand what you're saying...I plan to update the internals and the transmission(at least clutch/flywheel)....think that'll be enough???

So is anyone working on a S/C fo r the 3's???

Matty was talking about developing one for the 2.3 L, but I'm not sure if he's still doing that. Upgrading the internals is good, and a clutch and flywheels are absolute must haves for any FI application. But the clutch and flywheels aren't the parts that shatter. It's the shift forks, half shafts, etc that break. I'm not saying the tranny is extrememly fragile. I mean there are a few proteges out there that are running over 300 WHP with stock transmission (-clutch and flywheels of course) and they do ok. But with sticky tires, SC, and nitrous, I think you'd have more trouble than them.

p.s. Most people consider superchargers better for cars that see more time on the street than the track. They're just more predictable and easier to control/service than turbos.

 

[Yay-Boost]

Superchargers take eninge power to spin up so your engine is working harder to make the same WHP as a turbo. People with v engines like superchargers more because you can run one supercharger. Where you would need a turbo for each cylinder bank.

 

[tgv121281]

Let me ask you guys this....when you say the right rubo w/ the right engine....you mean size right?? Bigger the turbo, bigger the lag if the engine is too small??

Also, would you say that its possible to match up the right turbo, and tune it properly so that you are getting power throughout the band...similiar to a S/C??

Also, anarc....thanks for giving some more detail about the tranny....question, about the part where you said that stickies, s/c & nitrous could be a problem...do you mean like a big shot of nitrous, b/c if I got the s/c I wouldnt shoot the nitrous till well after coming off the line...(actually it'd be pretty much at the end of the run).....If I got a t/c I'd want to use the n2o staged to spool up faster...and then maybe a shot at the end of the run too...But no one really answered so I dont know if I can do that...

SO...
-would the tranny problem you mentioned still be there if I ran a s/c and n2o at the END of the run??

-would the tranny problem still be there if I ran a t/c and STAGED n2o just to help spool up

-Can I run staged n2o, t/c, and then another shot of n2o towards the end of the run???

 

[anarchistchiken]

-would the tranny problem you mentioned still be there if I ran a s/c and n2o at the END of the run??

-would the tranny problem still be there if I ran a t/c and STAGED n2o just to help spool up

-Can I run staged n2o, t/c, and then another shot of n2o towards the end of the run???

Nah then you'll be fine. It was just the s/c n2o off the line combo that had me concerned, but any of those combos should be fine. The turbo with n2o at the mid-end of the run will be ok as long as you're not running too much boost and you have forged internals. But if you're already making 400whp and then you spray a 100 shot, there could be problems!(laugh)

 

[mobomelter]

if you are going to run a mostly street car i wouldn't bother with n2o.

 

[tgv121281]

Thanks.....thats a huge help...so anybody else have any opinions...I thought this would be a heated debate by now...I appreciate the info..but its getting lonely in here...

Momo-you're right...my idea is to have a streetable car...but when I need to kick it in have the n2o on demand to really knock some socks off...
Thats why I really want a s/c.....then when I need to really make a hard run I can just use the juice at the end...Or also have a t/c...so I can dial the boost in nice and low...and when I'm gonna run...dial up the boost, activate the staged n2o, and then finish it off with another shot at the end if I really need...

Here's another question...Can staged n2o be turned on and off like a reg. shot of n2o??? Basically use the example above w/ the t/c. Can I run low boost NO n2o...and when I want to activate the staged n2o???? Also, for the setup I mentioned....could this be done w/ 1 setup??? I'm thinking I would need 1 setup/bottle for the staged n2o early on to help spool, and another setup/bottle for whatever shot I'd want to do at the end of the run...any comments, suggests etc...

 

[mobomelter]

well i think first thing you need to address before going after all this FI is our motor/wheel hop issue.

 

[tgv121281]

You're right about that..I'm trying to plan ahead tho...Hard to build a car w/out an idea of what the finished product will be....With a plan...than you have to overcome obstacles to get where you want...If you just build around the obstacles..then you end up with either 1-what everyone else has, or 2- nowhere near what you wanted....At least thats the way I see....And this is the same principle I've applied to other projects(not cars) I've undertaken...

 

[M3 5MT]

What???

my bad, i worded that wrong, the power gain offsets the loss...you knew what i meant.