mazdaspeedwerx
Member
- :
- 03.5 msp
a guy I know has I guess a stage 2 cobalt. first time we ran before he started modding I spanked him. then he upgraded to stage2 without telling me and spanked me.now I got something for his ass
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The New Cobalt SS... thoughts?
- Thread starter TheDirtyGoatee
- Start date
It's the fastest car around the ring in it's class, and it's handling gets praised almost as much as the MS3... It's a good car, just umm...err on the cheap side.
I don't know what you've been reading, but everything I've read said that the handling on it feels heavy and non-responsive.
BlackCherry06
Member
- :
- '17 CX-3 GT
"Engine offerings were carried over, including the standard 229 in Chevrolet V6 (231 in Buick V6 in California) an optional 267 in V8 (not available in California), a 305 in V8 in the base and Landau models, and a turbocharged 170 hp (127 kW) 231 in Buick V6 in the Monte Carlo Turbo."
I gotta say...this is a new one on me. I studied up on these cars when my brother bought his maroon '85 SS and I've never heard or, and definitely never seen one. Good find though....
http://home.flash.net/~rjgeorge/montecarlo.htm
Sorry to get off track. In regard to a Cobalt Turbo...great engine in a mediocre car. I won't change my opinion of a Cobalt until Chevy finally relents and does something about the lackluster materials, fit and finish inside. That hard, textured plastic is an eyesore and it gets brittle and noisy with age. I commend them for the latest performance tweaks, but it's still not a car I would aspire to own.
I gotta say...this is a new one on me. I studied up on these cars when my brother bought his maroon '85 SS and I've never heard or, and definitely never seen one. Good find though....
http://home.flash.net/~rjgeorge/montecarlo.htm
Sorry to get off track. In regard to a Cobalt Turbo...great engine in a mediocre car. I won't change my opinion of a Cobalt until Chevy finally relents and does something about the lackluster materials, fit and finish inside. That hard, textured plastic is an eyesore and it gets brittle and noisy with age. I commend them for the latest performance tweaks, but it's still not a car I would aspire to own.
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techniciana
Banned
- :
- 2007 mazda 3 sport,headders,nitrous,cold air,magnaflow exh.
watch out for these things
guys,i have seen the new 2009 hhr ss.it is turbo'd.it is an impressive setup,high horsepower,the automatic has a launch control,almost like a trans brake.you activate it and put one foot on the brake and mash the throttle down,when you let off the brake,it signals the trans control module to engage without and harshness(except what the wheels do).haven't figured out how they engineered it,but launch control lets the thing launch from 4,000 rpms(well into boosting).if they are smart and want to be competetive,they'd equip the cobalt ss with an auto for stoplight to stoplight runs.watch out for the hhr ss.they're coming to a theater near you(dance)
guys,i have seen the new 2009 hhr ss.it is turbo'd.it is an impressive setup,high horsepower,the automatic has a launch control,almost like a trans brake.you activate it and put one foot on the brake and mash the throttle down,when you let off the brake,it signals the trans control module to engage without and harshness(except what the wheels do).haven't figured out how they engineered it,but launch control lets the thing launch from 4,000 rpms(well into boosting).if they are smart and want to be competetive,they'd equip the cobalt ss with an auto for stoplight to stoplight runs.watch out for the hhr ss.they're coming to a theater near you(dance)
"Engine offerings were carried over, including the standard 229 in Chevrolet V6 (231 in Buick V6 in California) an optional 267 in V8 (not available in California), a 305 in V8 in the base and Landau models, and a turbocharged 170 hp (127 kW) 231 in Buick V6 in the Monte Carlo Turbo."
I gotta say...this is a new one on me. I studied up on these cars when my brother bought his maroon '85 SS and I've never heard or, and definitely never seen one. Good find though....
http://home.flash.net/~rjgeorge/montecarlo.htm
Sorry to get off track. In regard to a Cobalt Turbo...great engine in a mediocre car. I won't change my opinion of a Cobalt until Chevy finally relents and does something about the lackluster materials, fit and finish inside. That hard, textured plastic is an eyesore and it gets brittle and noisy with age. I commend them for the latest performance tweaks, but it's still not a car I would aspire to own.
I've never heard of the GM 3.8 turbo V6 used in anything other than the GN, GNX and one late-80's model Trans-Am...surprising find.
And I agree with you on the Cobalt. Seems like they're scared to upgrade the materials in just about all of the GM cars. If they put more energy in those details, more people would buy their cars.
BlackCherry06
Member
- :
- '17 CX-3 GT
Ugh..another great drivetrain in a crappy platform. I cough up better looking things than an HHR.
Hopefully this thread isn't too old for this post, I haven't been on here for a while.
I have the unique opportunity to compare my daily driver 2008 Cobalt SS to my wife's daily driver 2008 MS3 GT.
First of all let's put the "whose car is faster" debate to bed. stock vs stock, we went from a 50ish roll in the top of 3rd gear so that the MS3 was getting all it's boost and it was dead even. The Cobalt has limited boost only in 1st so I am guessing that is why it is faster over all. As far as the "launch control" on the cobalt, you can get better 1/4 times by not using it. Handling, you are not going to be able to tell the differnce between the 2 cars on the street, they will both take an on ramp faster than any sane person would want to, lol. Braking feels the same in each car, fading never showed up on either. The Brembos sure do look a lot prettier than the nasty MS3 calipers though, lol.
The second thing I want to address is interior. The Mazda wins hands down. The seats are better and the plastics used are more eye appealing and it just has a classier look. That being said, the Cobalt has some nice features that the Mazda doesn't. Sun roof. The base stereo (pioneer) sounds much better than the crappy Bose system in the Mazda. I don't need to buy any parts to have XM except the subscription. The stereo displays song and artist info unlike the Mazda's. The tire pressure monitoring system displays the air pressure for each tire unlike the mazda. The Cobalt actually has a boost gage unlike the mazda. The shifter in the Cobalt has a much more positive feel than the Mazda's "stick in a jar of peanut butter" shifter. The pedals in the Mazda are nicer than the cobalts but both work for heal-toe down shifts fairly well. The Cobalt's interior is not nice, but it's not falling apart or anything like people make it sound. That being said, the interior is the least important part to me, coming from driving as my previous daily a 1995 neon with no AC. ANYTHING is an improvement, lol.
Exterior styling is subjective so let me give you my opinion on these 2 cars. Neither of the 2 cars are exceptionally sexy. I would much rather look at my 2000 Pontiac Firebird Formula than either one of these cars. They are not ugly, however. The cobalt I have is on of the few SS's without the giant ricer wing and it looks much more subdued that way. The MS3 has a very nice "hot hatch" look to it that I like.
Modibility is something that is important to me, as I can't leave any vehicle I own alone. I have done some limited searching as has my wife and the MS3 seems to not have much after market support as far as power increase goes. Has anybody cracked the Mazda ECU? I spent 250 bucks on a mail order tune (only because no dyno tuners in my area have any experience with the LNF motor) and added about 30 hp and 80 ft lbs of torque to my Cobalt with zero driveability comprimises. If anybody can give me some advice on things to increase power for the MS3 that won't affect driveability, I'm all for it.
Finally, let make the point that I am not a "brand fan boy". I buy whatever vehicle fills the needs that I have. I own a 2000 Pontiac Firebird Formula for play at the dragstrip, a 1990 Toyota 4x4 pickup for offroad and hauling, my wife has the 2008 Mazda MS3 for a fun daily that can haul 3 dogs, and I have a 2008 Chevrolet Cobalt SS for a fun daily that still gets decent gas mileage to go back and forth to work, and I love everyone of them. Even with their unique quirks and issues.
I guess my point is that by having a closed mind and liking only one brand of vehicle you can miss out on some really neat cars that you might otherwise really like.
I have the unique opportunity to compare my daily driver 2008 Cobalt SS to my wife's daily driver 2008 MS3 GT.
First of all let's put the "whose car is faster" debate to bed. stock vs stock, we went from a 50ish roll in the top of 3rd gear so that the MS3 was getting all it's boost and it was dead even. The Cobalt has limited boost only in 1st so I am guessing that is why it is faster over all. As far as the "launch control" on the cobalt, you can get better 1/4 times by not using it. Handling, you are not going to be able to tell the differnce between the 2 cars on the street, they will both take an on ramp faster than any sane person would want to, lol. Braking feels the same in each car, fading never showed up on either. The Brembos sure do look a lot prettier than the nasty MS3 calipers though, lol.
The second thing I want to address is interior. The Mazda wins hands down. The seats are better and the plastics used are more eye appealing and it just has a classier look. That being said, the Cobalt has some nice features that the Mazda doesn't. Sun roof. The base stereo (pioneer) sounds much better than the crappy Bose system in the Mazda. I don't need to buy any parts to have XM except the subscription. The stereo displays song and artist info unlike the Mazda's. The tire pressure monitoring system displays the air pressure for each tire unlike the mazda. The Cobalt actually has a boost gage unlike the mazda. The shifter in the Cobalt has a much more positive feel than the Mazda's "stick in a jar of peanut butter" shifter. The pedals in the Mazda are nicer than the cobalts but both work for heal-toe down shifts fairly well. The Cobalt's interior is not nice, but it's not falling apart or anything like people make it sound. That being said, the interior is the least important part to me, coming from driving as my previous daily a 1995 neon with no AC. ANYTHING is an improvement, lol.
Exterior styling is subjective so let me give you my opinion on these 2 cars. Neither of the 2 cars are exceptionally sexy. I would much rather look at my 2000 Pontiac Firebird Formula than either one of these cars. They are not ugly, however. The cobalt I have is on of the few SS's without the giant ricer wing and it looks much more subdued that way. The MS3 has a very nice "hot hatch" look to it that I like.
Modibility is something that is important to me, as I can't leave any vehicle I own alone. I have done some limited searching as has my wife and the MS3 seems to not have much after market support as far as power increase goes. Has anybody cracked the Mazda ECU? I spent 250 bucks on a mail order tune (only because no dyno tuners in my area have any experience with the LNF motor) and added about 30 hp and 80 ft lbs of torque to my Cobalt with zero driveability comprimises. If anybody can give me some advice on things to increase power for the MS3 that won't affect driveability, I'm all for it.
Finally, let make the point that I am not a "brand fan boy". I buy whatever vehicle fills the needs that I have. I own a 2000 Pontiac Firebird Formula for play at the dragstrip, a 1990 Toyota 4x4 pickup for offroad and hauling, my wife has the 2008 Mazda MS3 for a fun daily that can haul 3 dogs, and I have a 2008 Chevrolet Cobalt SS for a fun daily that still gets decent gas mileage to go back and forth to work, and I love everyone of them. Even with their unique quirks and issues.
I guess my point is that by having a closed mind and liking only one brand of vehicle you can miss out on some really neat cars that you might otherwise really like.
TheDirtyGoatee
Member
- :
- 2008 Mazda MX-5 5MT PRHT
Holy Bumped thread!
Good read though.
Good read though.
Saskatchewan17
Member
- :
- 2008 TR Mazdaspeed 3
My thoughts...
It's a piece of s*** rental car with surprisingly high capabilities. It's chassis and engine may be superb (in terms of performance not reliability), but is just a Cavilier underneath it all.
It's a piece of s*** rental car with surprisingly high capabilities. It's chassis and engine may be superb (in terms of performance not reliability), but is just a Cavilier underneath it all.
My thoughts...
It's a piece of s*** rental car with surprisingly high capabilities. It's chassis and engine may be superb (in terms of performance not reliability), but is just a Cavilier underneath it all.
Damn!!! Hatred huh? You must have been smoked by one of these!lol, before you right back harshly to me it was just a joke. I have driven the tc cobalt and i actually liked it. it was really smooth just like the ms3. but i think it's never going to have a chance on these forums, there's just too many mazda homers on here. Don't bash it until you drive it please it's just not fair.
The Cavalier was built on the J-body. The Cobalt/HHR is built on Delta I, the same platform as the Opel/Vauxhall Astra, and Zafira. The Cobalt bashers incorrectly refer to it as a Cavalier.
I'm not a MS3 basher. The MS3 was HIGH on my list of cars to buy due to the HID headlights, LED tail lights, great performance, etc... The fact the MS3 was built on the C1 (used on Euro Focus, the Focus RS, Focus ST, Mazda3, CX-7, Volvo C30/S40/C70/V50, Transit Connect) is also a plus. Volvo/Mazda/Fords global shared architecture program produced solid chassis. My D2C/S197 Mustang GT feels very refined going over our SE MI roads - it feels like a solid car, even more refined than my 00 Crown Vic.
I test drove a 08 MS3 and several 09 Cobalt SS/TC's before ordering my Cobalt. The MS3 lacked a lot of features that I wanted: sunroof, reprogrammable performance display, and less doors. In addition, the interior of the MS3 looked too dark IMHO. It was like driving in a big cave with a cavernous rear compartment, and the hatch didn't make it any easier to judge distance.
I agree that the MS3's interior quality was excellent. I'd add that it is on-par with sub-$40k Audi's. The fit, finish, and material feel was excellent.
When driving the MS3, it felt like there was much more torque-steer in 1st gear, the steering didn't feel as good, and the worst part had to be the shifter feel. The 6-speed gearbox requires pushing down the shifter and going to the left of 1st gear to get into reverse. Unfortunately the shifter felt flimsy because of the push-down safety feature. It felt like I was going to break it most of the time. The Cobalt's shifter still feels like vague rubber, and I can only shift into reverse 10% of the time.
The RPD (performance display) on the Cobalt is very cool. I have it set to display a digital speedometer, lateral G-meter, gear indicator, and a bar-graph tachometer. I find that I use the RPD 99% of the time and rarely if ever refer to the standard analog gauges. That also reminds me, the MS3's speedometer was very difficult to use since I am used to a better resolution (more indicator marks for every 10 MPH or 5 MPH).
I really liked the LED tail lights and projector HID headlights on the MS3 though.
MS3
Pros: Excellent interior, high-tech exterior lighting, great seats
Cons: No sunroof, funky radio display/interface, useless telescoping steering wheel, too many doors, shifter feels like a toy, V8 fuel economy
Cobalt SS/TC
Pros: Excellent handling and control, has a lot of cool features: Bluetooth, RPD, USB port, sunroof, fade-resistant braking, excellent fuel economy, and I got the gray/black interior which is a pattern also used in the Corvette
Cons: Interior and build quality is about par with most cars assembled in US, can't get into reverse most of the time, steering wheel is still too close to the IP - I'm one of those tall people that have to sit far away so their legs feel comfortable but needs the steering wheel to come closer
The Cobalt's shocks are made by Sachs, the tires were also used on Porsche's at one time, it has 4-piston Brembo calipers in the front for fade resistant braking at the track, and I can easily get 30+ MPG on the highway. Cruising in subdivisions at 1500-2000 RPM nets me a consistent 40 MPG, so I know the car can get much higher than the rated 30 MPG highway.
I also read that the engine can fall out of the MS3 when the mounts snap, and that the turbo seals? would go causing black smoke to billow out. Supposedly 08.5-up have this problem fixed.
Bottom line is that I went with the SS/TC instead, cost wasn't the issue. The MS3 just didn't have everything that I wanted in a car. There was no legitimate excuse for less MPGs and a lack of a sunroof. Ford's MZR 2.3L DOHC just isn't as efficient, and the Cobalt's coupe chassis is stiff enough for the Nurburgring even with the sunroof.
My other fun car is a 07 Mustang GT and I used to think the TR-3650 had a rubbery shifter. The GT's shifter feels like a precision German design (with very solid and tactile feedback when rowing through the gates). The 4.6 3V V8 engine still sounds awesome, but the Cobalt is a lot more fun to drive and handles better (0.90G+ in skidpad, 70+ MPH in lane change/slalom). The 2010 Mustang GT with Track Pack II comes close to the Cobalt's lane change manners, but it is also about $10k more than a SS/TC.
I'm not a MS3 basher. The MS3 was HIGH on my list of cars to buy due to the HID headlights, LED tail lights, great performance, etc... The fact the MS3 was built on the C1 (used on Euro Focus, the Focus RS, Focus ST, Mazda3, CX-7, Volvo C30/S40/C70/V50, Transit Connect) is also a plus. Volvo/Mazda/Fords global shared architecture program produced solid chassis. My D2C/S197 Mustang GT feels very refined going over our SE MI roads - it feels like a solid car, even more refined than my 00 Crown Vic.
I test drove a 08 MS3 and several 09 Cobalt SS/TC's before ordering my Cobalt. The MS3 lacked a lot of features that I wanted: sunroof, reprogrammable performance display, and less doors. In addition, the interior of the MS3 looked too dark IMHO. It was like driving in a big cave with a cavernous rear compartment, and the hatch didn't make it any easier to judge distance.
I agree that the MS3's interior quality was excellent. I'd add that it is on-par with sub-$40k Audi's. The fit, finish, and material feel was excellent.
When driving the MS3, it felt like there was much more torque-steer in 1st gear, the steering didn't feel as good, and the worst part had to be the shifter feel. The 6-speed gearbox requires pushing down the shifter and going to the left of 1st gear to get into reverse. Unfortunately the shifter felt flimsy because of the push-down safety feature. It felt like I was going to break it most of the time. The Cobalt's shifter still feels like vague rubber, and I can only shift into reverse 10% of the time.
The RPD (performance display) on the Cobalt is very cool. I have it set to display a digital speedometer, lateral G-meter, gear indicator, and a bar-graph tachometer. I find that I use the RPD 99% of the time and rarely if ever refer to the standard analog gauges. That also reminds me, the MS3's speedometer was very difficult to use since I am used to a better resolution (more indicator marks for every 10 MPH or 5 MPH).
I really liked the LED tail lights and projector HID headlights on the MS3 though.
MS3
Pros: Excellent interior, high-tech exterior lighting, great seats
Cons: No sunroof, funky radio display/interface, useless telescoping steering wheel, too many doors, shifter feels like a toy, V8 fuel economy
Cobalt SS/TC
Pros: Excellent handling and control, has a lot of cool features: Bluetooth, RPD, USB port, sunroof, fade-resistant braking, excellent fuel economy, and I got the gray/black interior which is a pattern also used in the Corvette
Cons: Interior and build quality is about par with most cars assembled in US, can't get into reverse most of the time, steering wheel is still too close to the IP - I'm one of those tall people that have to sit far away so their legs feel comfortable but needs the steering wheel to come closer
The Cobalt's shocks are made by Sachs, the tires were also used on Porsche's at one time, it has 4-piston Brembo calipers in the front for fade resistant braking at the track, and I can easily get 30+ MPG on the highway. Cruising in subdivisions at 1500-2000 RPM nets me a consistent 40 MPG, so I know the car can get much higher than the rated 30 MPG highway.
I also read that the engine can fall out of the MS3 when the mounts snap, and that the turbo seals? would go causing black smoke to billow out. Supposedly 08.5-up have this problem fixed.
Bottom line is that I went with the SS/TC instead, cost wasn't the issue. The MS3 just didn't have everything that I wanted in a car. There was no legitimate excuse for less MPGs and a lack of a sunroof. Ford's MZR 2.3L DOHC just isn't as efficient, and the Cobalt's coupe chassis is stiff enough for the Nurburgring even with the sunroof.
My other fun car is a 07 Mustang GT and I used to think the TR-3650 had a rubbery shifter. The GT's shifter feels like a precision German design (with very solid and tactile feedback when rowing through the gates). The 4.6 3V V8 engine still sounds awesome, but the Cobalt is a lot more fun to drive and handles better (0.90G+ in skidpad, 70+ MPH in lane change/slalom). The 2010 Mustang GT with Track Pack II comes close to the Cobalt's lane change manners, but it is also about $10k more than a SS/TC.
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TheDirtyGoatee
Member
- :
- 2008 Mazda MX-5 5MT PRHT
Nice write up. Very detailed. I just don't like the MS3 because I dislike the "hot hatch" movement. To me, the Cobalt SS just looks to goofy in the rear. I also hear it's hard to see out the back glass.
The rear view is dismal with the Cobalt, but not because of the spoiler. It's because the package tray is sloped way up like most of the other cars on the market today. I have the factory optioned big wing (D81 Aero-wing) and the drawback is that it blocks a certain part of the rear (you can't see the occupants of a SUV behind you, and it also blocks out some of their headlights) but you can actually use the wing somewhat to gauge the distance to a car/wall behind you. Almost every new car I've test driven or rented has had the same problem: the rear decklid/tray is sloped up so it makes it hard to see out the back.
With the MS3's hatch, it didn't feel like I had much of an advantage. I still couldn't see very well out the back but it could have just been my seating position. I don't mind the hot hatch styling, but I really didn't need 2 doors and a hatch. The Cobalt coupe suited me fine.
I loved how Mazda paid attention to the fine details in the engine compartment, hatch, and interior. A lot of the SS/TC's in the lot had excess plastic mold flashing and even tool marks on some of the plastic pieces.
With the MS3's hatch, it didn't feel like I had much of an advantage. I still couldn't see very well out the back but it could have just been my seating position. I don't mind the hot hatch styling, but I really didn't need 2 doors and a hatch. The Cobalt coupe suited me fine.
I loved how Mazda paid attention to the fine details in the engine compartment, hatch, and interior. A lot of the SS/TC's in the lot had excess plastic mold flashing and even tool marks on some of the plastic pieces.
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MazdaBoi318
Member
- :
- 01 Mazda Protege LX
My thoughts...
It's a piece of s*** rental car with surprisingly high capabilities. It's chassis and engine may be superb (in terms of performance not reliability), but is just a Cavilier underneath it all.
wow....u sir....dumbass....
Damn!!! Hatred huh? You must have been smoked by one of these!lol, before you right back harshly to me it was just a joke. I have driven the tc cobalt and i actually liked it. it was really smooth just like the ms3. but i think it's never going to have a chance on these forums, there's just too many mazda homers on here. Don't bash it until you drive it please it's just not fair.
x2!!!
TheDirtyGoatee
Member
- :
- 2008 Mazda MX-5 5MT PRHT
This is why I love my MSP. The wing is just low enough so I can see what's behind me but it still has a sportier look than the stock ES wing. To me, I think the Cobalt was somewhat of a wasted effort by GM. The Solstice and Skyy were great additions. I am tired of FWD's. I know the MSP is FWD but I wished they'd have kept it AWD. The fact that Mazda didn't realize the STi and Evo were it's competitors and still kept it FWD is beyond me. However, if you look at side by side comparo's, the Speed3 out classes most if not all competitors in it's class.
Saskatchewan17
Member
- :
- 2008 TR Mazdaspeed 3
I just think a sensible buyer would buy something like an MS3 or a GTI just in terms of day-to-day driveablility. The Cobalt SS and Caliber SRT-4 are good performers (cobalt even more so), I just think that they really aren't quality automobiles that I would own. Just my .02$. Don't call me a dumbass for stating my opinion. My statement may have been brash, but all reviews for the Cobalt say it is lacking in fit&finish and overall quality. I've even driven one (LT not SS) and it doesn't feel as substantial and well put together as the MS3 or regular 3. I'm sorry I bashed it and called it a Cavilier but I'm just saying that I wouldn't own one.
But look at all of C&D and Edmunds comparisons of sport compacts recently. The MS3 has gone 3 for 3 in both automotive journals. Won every comparison it has ever been put in in C&D and Edmunds. I'm just saying that the professionals who have tested thousands of car probably know what they're talking about... even if I don't haha. It even made the 10 best list on C&D for two years in a row. I'm not trying to be a fanboy here, I'm just stating the facts.
But look at all of C&D and Edmunds comparisons of sport compacts recently. The MS3 has gone 3 for 3 in both automotive journals. Won every comparison it has ever been put in in C&D and Edmunds. I'm just saying that the professionals who have tested thousands of car probably know what they're talking about... even if I don't haha. It even made the 10 best list on C&D for two years in a row. I'm not trying to be a fanboy here, I'm just stating the facts.
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- '03.5 Blazin' MSP (sold) ................. '14 Soul 6 GT
I was talking to a rep at NAIAS and it has a LSD option for a reasonable amount of $$.
367 (mp3yellow
367 (mp3yellow
TheDirtyGoatee
Member
- :
- 2008 Mazda MX-5 5MT PRHT
I just think a sensible buyer would buy something like an MS3 or a GTI just in terms of day-to-day driveablility. The Cobalt SS and Caliber SRT-4 are good performers (cobalt even more so), I just think that they really aren't quality automobiles that I would own. Just my .02$. Don't call me a dumbass for stating my opinion. My statement may have been brash, but all reviews for the Cobalt say it is lacking in fit&finish and overall quality. I've even driven one (LT not SS) and it doesn't feel as substantial and well put together as the MS3 or regular 3. I'm sorry I bashed it and called it a Cavilier but I'm just saying that I wouldn't own one.
But look at all of C&D and Edmunds comparisons of sport compacts recently. The MS3 has gone 3 for 3 in both automotive journals. Won every comparison it has ever been put in in C&D and Edmunds. I'm just saying that the professionals who have tested thousands of car probably know what they're talking about... even if I don't haha. It even made the 10 best list on C&D for two years in a row. I'm not trying to be a fanboy here, I'm just stating the facts.
That's what I was saying. I get C&D and MotorTrend and both show the MS3 always on top over it's AWD brethren.
