Stock Narrow band O2 = LEAN

[perfworks]

Hello all,
As you know we have discussed this before but not really in detail. I wanted to start this thread to educate and learn from people about their various experiences with narrowband O2 sensors. Just like the ones found on our stock proteges
Everyone should get involved and ask what they feel and post any relevant information pertaining to O2 feedback. Wideband users please offer some info also.
The main reason for this thread is for positive info to come out about proper tuning habits. Achieving the desired and optimal A/F ratios along with timing lead. Since the Forum here doesnt have a tuning section yet this FI forum will have to do.
Just a word of caution as we start, please keep this as factual as possible. There is no need to get into a pissing match or send people searching. Let everyone ask what they want to ask and everyone should chime in here to help fellow members understand the role of Engine Management in todays emmision regulated enviroment.
Also a word to the wise. I am glad to see people turning more to WB setups. At first it didnt seem feasible to spend that much money for a unit if you were just running an FMU and low boosted induction systems. But as some can testify it has "saved" them.
My only advise to start would be to NEVER trust your stock O2 when tuning any type of fuel enriching device. IT will and does send eroneous signals. It is completely and utterly inaccurate. So for anyone running any type of EMS at all I would strongly suggest tuning ONLY with a WB O2 and not your stock sensor.
This includes any displays that get its' info from the stock O2 sensor.
My 2 1/2 cents

 

[Bigg Tim]

Originally posted by perfworks
My only advise to start would be to NEVER trust your stock O2 when tuning any type of fuel enriching device. IT will and does send eroneous signals. It is completely and utterly inaccurate. So for anyone running any type of EMS at all I would strongly suggest tuning ONLY with a WB O2 and not your stock sensor.

Why is the stock O2 not accurate? It's like a $500 sensor, so wouldn't that be good enough? The only drawback the I have been told about it was that it is a little delayed, but not by very long. Also that when it gives you the reading in was only like a point in difference,if that.

 

[spoolinmp3]

I have not been on here for some time but yes, the stock o2 is a narrow band. It only effectively monitors a/f ratios from 13.5:1 to 16:1, in a F/I car you are running a/f's in the range of 10:1 to 12.5:1...............so this makes a stock narrow band sensor useless in tuning and monitoring. I have had widebands hooked up on peoples cars while there autometer a/f gauges are in place.......when you cross reference both gauges in quickly becomes evident that the autometer a/f is a joke. Its is WAAYYYY off!

I have a wideband but do not drive with it daily, I dont think this is necessary but its nice to have. I put it on every once in a while just to verify if my a/f's are good.

An egt, or even better a good a/f gauge like greddys are good. And just be aware of any hestitation or detination, knock, ping and you should be fine.

Widebands have come down in price recently, they can be had for low $300 range..............the best investment you will make on a F/I car........just my 3 cents

 

[wagner]

I run a fast system on my dart. Its on all the time because it can adjust the fuel to target a/f numbers. This is very nice! I also have the motec lamda meter to tune costomers cars. I really don't see how I would tune a car with out one. They are a must for a tuner. The one on pauls car is nice. I forget witch one it is.

IF you must tune with a a/f gauge be sure the it is peged rich to be safe.

Andrew Wagner
Wagnermotorsports.net

 

[Dexter]

I was either going to get the Greddy A/F gauge or the Innovate LM-1 wideband, but since the emanage stuff isnt working out too well, im waiting to hear what Perfworks has come up with

 

[spoolinmp3]

Get the wideband over the greddy gauge
I got the emanage to work on the protege's with no issues, it was the MSP's that were giving me problems
`

 

[spoolinmp3]

Wagner, how do u like the FAST system?
I have heard many good things about it

Yeah the motec meter is nice

Paul has the UEGO that we use to sell, a nice economical bosch wideband

 

[Dexter]

Get the wideband over the greddy gauge
I got the emanage to work on the protege's with no issues, it was the MSP's that were giving me problems
`

Don't they have the same ECU though? s***...anyone want to trade MSP ECU for something else? Or maybe ... how much would a junked car ECU cost...

 

[perfworks]

To answer a couple of questions.
Narrow band O2 sensors ONLY accurately read stoich A/F ratios.
Meaning that it is meant as closed loop tuning tool only where the stock ecu will maintain the 14.7. Cat efficiency.
The ECU adjusts but knows of the latency in the sensors' "accuracy". The sampling rate in the software is usually every 40-80 ms.
Unlike a WBO2 that samples immediately thru a current pump in its' sampling chamber.
Think of a narrowband sensor as a two pole switch. On and Off. It will be on while at 450mv. Off anytime it is either rich (higher mv) or lean (lower mv). Depending on the EMS it will throw a number at you like 13.2 for rich. But that is as accurate as the blind leading the blind.
What some people never knew is that narrowband sensors DONT read rich a/f ratios. NEVER. Only oxygen in the particular sample provided. It can only distinguish accurately 450mv. Anything above or below is guessing.

 

[perfworks]

Wagner, how do u like the FAST system?
I have heard many good things about it

Yeah the motec meter is nice

Paul has the UEGO that we use to sell, a nice economical bosch wideband

VERY easy to work with.

 

[perfworks]

I have not been on here for some time but yes, the stock o2 is a narrow band. It only effectively monitors a/f ratios from 13.5:1 to 16:1, in a F/I car you are running a/f's in the range of 10:1 to 12.5:1...............so this makes a stock narrow band sensor useless in tuning and monitoring. I have had widebands hooked up on peoples cars while there autometer a/f gauges are in place.......when you cross reference both gauges in quickly becomes evident that the autometer a/f is a joke. Its is WAAYYYY off!

I have a wideband but do not drive with it daily, I dont think this is necessary but its nice to have. I put it on every once in a while just to verify if my a/f's are good.

An egt, or even better a good a/f gauge like greddys are good. And just be aware of any hestitation or detination, knock, ping and you should be fine.

Widebands have come down in price recently, they can be had for low $300 range..............the best investment you will make on a F/I car........just my 3 cents

Good post Terry.
But unfortunately the O2 doesnt even read anywhere near the range mentioned. Depending on the unit and the software used to count the crosses from the O2, will give you some dependability but for load and boost applications forget it.
Your right a combo of tools like WB and EGT are great for safety and detecting a problem before it gets out of hand.

 

[spoolinmp3]

Good post Terry.
But unfortunately the O2 doesnt even read anywhere near the range mentioned. Depending on the unit and the software used to count the crosses from the O2, will give you some dependability but for load and boost applications forget it.
Your right a combo of tools like WB and EGT are great for safety and detecting a problem before it gets out of hand




WOW I thought narrow bands had a range, man that makes them even worse for monitoring

 

[Bigg Tim]

Originally posted by spoolinmp3
I have not been on here for some time but yes, the stock o2 is a narrow band. It only effectively monitors a/f ratios from 13.5:1 to 16:1, in a F/I car you are running a/f's in the range of 10:1 to 12.5:1...............so this makes a stock narrow band sensor useless in tuning and monitoring. I have had widebands hooked up on peoples cars while there autometer a/f gauges are in place.......when you cross reference both gauges in quickly becomes evident that the autometer a/f is a joke. Its is WAAYYYY off!

I have a wideband but do not drive with it daily, I dont think this is necessary but its nice to have. I put it on every once in a while just to verify if my a/f's are good.

An egt, or even better a good a/f gauge like greddys are good. And just be aware of any hestitation or detination, knock, ping and you should be fine.

Widebands have come down in price recently, they can be had for low $300 range..............the best investment you will make on a F/I car........just my 3 cents

Cool, I didn't know that. Any ideas on where to pick up a WBO2 that cheap?

 

[AutoBox]

yeh me as well...im lookin to pick up a wideband now as im waitin on perf to get this piggyback module thingy workin so i can get some tuning done

 

[Kooldino]

Why is the stock O2 not accurate?

Because it's only 1 volt. It's accurate...but only in a VERY limited range. Not the range you need for boost.

It's like a $500 sensor,

Say what? I wideband is only $150 for the sensor...i've seen narrow bands for ~$25

so wouldn't that be good enough?

No.

The only drawback the I have been told about it was that it is a little delayed, but not by very long. Also that when it gives you the reading in was only like a point in difference,if that.

You've been miserably misinformed.

 

[acidbug]

Where to find Wideband for like $300?

Chas

 

[DooMer_MP3]

mazdamp3_18 had posted something earlier with that pricerange in this thread: http://www.protegemp3.com/vbb230/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45199

 

[acidbug]

hey all here is a link to a DIY Wideband..Costs around $200 to make..but if there is a wideband for only $300..i will do that!

here's the link none the less!

http://www.diy-wb.com/info.htm

chas

 

[ARunto]

Where to find Wideband for like $300?

Chas

not $300 but close...only $350

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/

-Alan

 

[DooMer_MP3]

Thats a pretty sweet deal. With the datalogging and whatnot.

Chris