So what are my options for a compact subwoofer?

[Yan00LX]

I have a 2000 Protege LX (can you guess??) in which I recently installed a Kenwood Excelon headunit (new 2007 model, love it).

I'm missing some bass right now. I'm not much into techno or hip-hop, I'm a rocker! I want tight bass drums and fat bass guitars that's all. I want something fairly neutral, not overly "boomy" or exagerated.
I've been thinking a single 10" could do the trick... if powered correctly. I used to have a cheaper JBL 12" in an older car and found way to boomy and all over the place (was mounted in a closed box).

The problem I have though, I am a guitarist, I often carry a big speaker cabinet (Marshall 1960A, that's 4 12" speakers for those who didn't know) so I need all my trunk space, I'd rather not have to take out the sub everytime I need to transport it.

So what are my options for a compact subwoofer? I'm skeptical of the Infinity Basslink... but maybe if I go with 2 of them? One under each front seat? Would it work?
Or maybe a shallow 10", replacing the spare tire (does "fix your flat tire" in a can work right?), or under the seats?

Like I said, I don,t want to cause earthquakes with my car, I just want to "feel" the bass drum!

Thanks

 

[sam1]

a sealed 10 should do the trick. I would look into building a fg box, like many of the people here have done, including myself. That, or the stock msp 8" enclosure w/ a good 8 would work perfect as well, imo.

 

[Yan00LX]

But, no matter how the box is made, the point is still: where to put it?

What about the more "creative" options? Like:

- Changing rear speakers to 6X9 woofers, amp them and hi-pass at 100Hz (well I could simply use the sub out on my deck)
- Get the saw out and make free-standing 8" subs fit on the rear deck

Any shallow 10" can be fitted under the front seats? That would be amazing...

I think turning the rear speakers into pseudo subwoofers might be a good idea, as I hate having full-range speakers in the back anyway... hmmmm

 

[BradleyJ]

Check out Pioneer... They have a new line of 10s and 12s that are very shallow. Im not sure how great the response would be, but they might be what you are looking for.

 

[sam1]

But, no matter how the box is made, the point is still: where to put it?

What about the more "creative" options? Like:

- Changing rear speakers to 6X9 woofers, amp them and hi-pass at 100Hz (well I could simply use the sub out on my deck)
- Get the saw out and make free-standing 8" subs fit on the rear deck

Any shallow 10" can be fitted under the front seats? That would be amazing...

I think turning the rear speakers into pseudo subwoofers might be a good idea, as I hate having full-range speakers in the back anyway... hmmmm

The msp enclosure mounts to the underside of the rear deck and is compatable with most 8" woofers. no cutting required and minimal trunk space lost. Can usually be had in the for sale section for under $100.

as seen here: http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123648914&highlight=msp+enclosure

 

[jersey_emt]

The msp enclosure mounts to the underside of the rear deck and is compatable with most 8" woofers. no cutting required and minimal trunk space lost. Can usually be had in the for sale section for under $100.

as seen here: http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123648914&highlight=msp+enclosure

Agreed. This enclosure may be exactly what you are looking for.

Like sam1 said, it mounts to the underside of the rear deck (on the 'ceiling' of the trunk), and takes up minimal trunk space.

Is there someone nearby with an MSP? If so, check if your speaker cabinet fits in the trunk.

 

[Yan00LX]

Agreed. This enclosure may be exactly what you are looking for.

Like sam1 said, it mounts to the underside of the rear deck (on the 'ceiling' of the trunk), and takes up minimal trunk space.

Is there someone nearby with an MSP? If so, check if your speaker cabinet fits in the trunk.

This is very interesting. MSPs aren't legion around here (Montreal, Canada) but I do see one once in a while, no one I know has one though.

But it seems to me, two good "free air" 6" or 8" subwoofers in place of the rear speakers would push more air in the cabin...
I don't mind cutting, and I don't mind losing the rear speakers (I'd have to lose them for the MSP sub anyway).

Also, I remember a friend who had "medium-grade" Pioneer 6X9 in the back of his car (an old Buick) which were amped, and the amount of bass he got out of those without using a sub was just incredible. Since I'm not looking for actual "sub-bass", just a nice kick drum sound and fat bass guitar when listening to rock, I think I'm leaning towards that.
I'd amp all 4 speakers with a powerful 4-channel amp and use the sub-out for the rear speakers, then I can use the lo-pass on the HU for "normal operation", then switch it to full range when I have people in the back.

I mean, they were PIONEER speakers and the amp was I think MTX!!! And it sounded better than the JBL 12" setup I once had...
Can't imagine what it would be with real nice speakers and clean power pushing them.

 

[chuyler1]

PartsExpress.com sells Tang Band 6x9" subwoofers designed for car audio. I'd give you the link but I can't seem to connect to PE right now. They are pretty cheap.

Combine those with a decent set of front speakers and a 4-ch amp (at least 75x4) and you should have some decent bass.

 

[Yan00LX]

PartsExpress.com sells Tang Band 6x9" subwoofers designed for car audio. I'd give you the link but I can't seem to connect to PE right now. They are pretty cheap.

Combine those with a decent set of front speakers and a 4-ch amp (at least 75x4) and you should have some decent bass.

They are indeed very cheap... wonder if they'd really perform better than a higher-grade "full range" low-passed 6X9... They seem to have a bigger magnet and are built for more excursion, and being 8ohm, they are easier to use in a bridged configuration (for 4 ohm total).
But it's easy to build a tweeter less speaker and call it a subwoofer

By the way, is there any real reason why people here diss Kenwood beside the whole flip face fiasco on the MSP?
I really like my Excelon HU (the X491, no flip face for me, thanks...), it's fairly neutral sounding, no fake bass and thin highs like Pioneers (imho).
And I was considering their new 4X70w (CAE rated) amp.
It's perfect for what I want do, it includes lo-pass filter on one pair of channel, specifically for that.

They also have a nice "component" set which is a 6.5" woofer and a separate tweeter on a single plate that mounts in place of the 6X8 in the doors. Nice clean installation, and I prefer my tweeters next to the woofers

 

[chuyler1]

There is more to the TB speakers than just a tweeter-less design but compare specs and make your own decision on that. I can't speak from experience since I haven't tried either approach.

There have been a few complains about the MSP-specific Kenwood head unit but overall I think Kenwood makes a decent head unit. I've never liked the size of their buttons (too small to use with gloves) but that's a personal matter.

The 6.5"/tweet plate option really isn't a 6.5". It is closer to a 5.25" in output. To get the most bass you should stick with 6x8" or 6.5" speakers. I know their all-in-one solution is tempting but those things never end up sounding that great.

 

[Yan00LX]

There is more to the TB speakers than just a tweeter-less design but compare specs and make your own decision on that. I can't speak from experience since I haven't tried either approach.

There have been a few complains about the MSP-specific Kenwood head unit but overall I think Kenwood makes a decent head unit. I've never liked the size of their buttons (too small to use with gloves) but that's a personal matter.

The 6.5"/tweet plate option really isn't a 6.5". It is closer to a 5.25" in output. To get the most bass you should stick with 6x8" or 6.5" speakers. I know their all-in-one solution is tempting but those things never end up sounding that great.

Yes, surely the TB is really intended as a subwoofer, rather than a "mid-woofer" like most full-range 6X9. And I just realised that the price is "per speaker" and not per pair, so they are not that cheap. Thanks for the headup!
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=264-837
I'm also a bit concerned about not having the option to revert to full range in the back (my 2.5 years old son is a big music fan), but I guess running full range occasionnaly in these speakers at moderate volume is an option...

There are some small buttons on my HU but I don't mind them, even though I live in Montreal which can be very cold, I never wear gloves... I do think the volume knob could protrude a bit more from the face though, I guess they did it this way to make it less prone to break (since it's a "7-way" kind of knob). My guitar amp (Mesa Mark IV) has push-pull knobs and they broke within a week, so I guess those things must be even more fragile. They help reduce the clutter though.

As for the front door speakers, since they will most likely be high-passed around 80Hz, I though that using smaller round speaker could help me get more clarity... 6X8/5X7 component sets aren't as common as 6.5", and it seems most non-separated 6X8s don't have angled tweeters, while this kit from Kenwood does. I think I'll take your advice and look into 6X8/5X7 and 6.5 component sets though (and not 5.25). Polk and JL seem to be the favoured speakers around here, I'll give those a listen.
The local Excelon dealer (because it seems not every Kenwood dealer sells Excelon) doesn't have installed speakers and HUs to compare, so I have to go pretty far away to be able to audition those...

Anyway, thanks for the help.

By the way, I noticed the stock headunit was connected to a separate black wire for ground, I use it for my new HU instead of the chassis. Is this good enough?

 

[chuyler1]

Don't use the ground on the stock wiring harness. It may work but if you come back and tell us you have alternator whine that is the first thing we are going to tell you to fix. I found a bar between the center dash and glove box that had a hole drilled in it. I used a screw/nut/washer that I had around the house to secure the pronged ground cable on my head unit.

Do me a favor, fade your current stereo to the front all the way and sit in the back seat. You will find you can hear the treble just fine. Now reverse the fade so it is all the way in the back and turn it up to a "loud" listening level and sit in the back again. OMG, having a speaker right by your ear is frickin annoying. Don't worry about having highs coming from the rear, most premium stereos these days only use the rear deck speakers to add bass and that is exactly what you would be doing if you went with the TB woofers.

In my experience, 5.25-6" speakers are only good until about 100-120Hz. If you want to have solid bass down to 70-80Hz you need 6.5", 7", or 6x8" speakers up front. I know many don't have angled tweeters but behind a plastic grill you won't notice the angle that much. The real advantage is stepping up to components. If you go to a junk yard you can find MSP or Protege5 sail panels (the black panel near the rear view mirrors) which hold a 3/4" tweeter. Many mid-level aftermarket tweeters will fit right into this location. It will raise your sound stage quite a bit and the tweet/mid/crossover combo in almost every case will sound better than equivalently priced coaxial speakers.

Oh, and I'm sure you have heard this in one form or another but there aren't many one-stop-shop brands in car audio. Just because Kenwood makes a decent head unit it doesn't mean their amps and speakers are going to be worth their price. Alpine is probably the only brand I would consider if I had to stick to one brand for all my components but even with them you can find better stuff for the price. Speakers are very personal, go to several shops with your own demo CD and listen to different speakers. Don't be afraid to turn it up and put your ears in a typical listening position (off to the side and about 2-3 feet away).

 

[sam1]

if you're that worried about having full range speakers in the back, just put a pair in the doors. then you can use the rear deck for your woofer. to be honest, ive heard good bass come out of a 6x9, but you will never get as good of bass from them as you would with a true subwoofer. imo, i would still go with the msp enclosure and a good 8.

 

[Yan00LX]

Alpine heh? I just noticed the Alpine MRP-F450 while browsing on Crutchfield. Similar to the Kenwood unit I mentionned (70W X 4, or 200W X 2, CAE rated) but it also boasts a sub-sonic filter on the 2nd pair of channels, which would be quite useful since I'd be running two small "subs".
I read a thread here about someone who ended up getting an Alpine amp with 2 JL Audio components in the front and he was extremely satisfied (I think he even wrote a review on Crutchfield!).

My plans are getting clearer and clearer, thanks to you guys!

Now the question is what should I do first...
By reading threads here I've learned that aftermarket speakers are usually quieter than stock paper ones. My HU is already just barely loud enough for my needs (I hate clipping!), if I upgrade my speakers first, I might regret it until I buy an amp.
So I might end up getting the amp first, it'll be funny to push stock speakers with 70W RMS!
I wish I could load my credit card and get everything, but it's not an option right now.

How hard is it to install an amp in my car? Is there an easy way through the firewall? I've installed HUs and speakers, but never did any actual wiring. Should I go all the way and run new wires to the front speakers right away instead of tapping into the stock wires behind the HU?

Also, thanks for the MSP sub idea, unfortunately it won't fit. I've looked at pictures and I analyzed more carefully this morning when I loaded my Marshall cab... to give you an idea, it seems the Protege's trunk was built around a Marshall cab... It's within an inch of not fitting! I'm not even sure I'll be able to put the amp on the back seat (I'll have to make sure it ends up between the casters), and I'll have to make sure the new rear speakers clear the cab.

 

[chuyler1]

Running the power cable through the firewall is pretty easy in the Protege. On the firewall near the battery there is a rubber grommet with a bundle of wires going into the car. Using a utility knife, carefully cut a hole in the grommet surround and feed your wire through. The rest is elementry.

Running new wires into the doors is a hassle...I'd love to tell you it is easy but it is my least favorite part of installing audio equipment. There is a how-to on this board somewhere that covers what to do. If you are looking for a quick fix, I would just recommend running the wires back to the head unit. No one will know the difference and it will save you an hour of messing with a coat hanger and getting bloody knuckles.

Double check the clearance you have before buying any speakers. Those TB's are pretty deep I think.

People can argue all day whether they should buy an amp, headunit, or speakers first. My suggestion is start with the head unit. It will give you a little more bass from your stock speakers while not over powering them too much. Next get new speakers since the aftermarket head unit puts out more power they will be an improvement in quality but not necessarily volume (other than you can turn it up without your ears complaining). Finally add the amp to get the most out of your new speakers.

 

[Thug541]

Running the power cable through the firewall is pretty easy in the Protege. On the firewall near the battery there is a rubber grommet with a bundle of wires going into the car. Using a utility knife, carefully cut a hole in the grommet surround and feed your wire through. The rest is elementry.

Running new wires into the doors is a hassle...I'd love to tell you it is easy but it is my least favorite part of installing audio equipment. There is a how-to on this board somewhere that covers what to do. If you are looking for a quick fix, I would just recommend running the wires back to the head unit. No one will know the difference and it will save you an hour of messing with a coat hanger and getting bloody knuckles.

Double check the clearance you have before buying any speakers. Those TB's are pretty deep I think.

People can argue all day whether they should buy an amp, headunit, or speakers first. My suggestion is start with the head unit. It will give you a little more bass from your stock speakers while not over powering them too much. Next get new speakers since the aftermarket head unit puts out more power they will be an improvement in quality but not necessarily volume (other than you can turn it up without your ears complaining). Finally add the amp to get the most out of your new speakers.

I fully agree with that order. My first system in my 92 corolla got a headunit first...then I upgraded my speakers (but never powered them off an amp) and then subs. By the by....being 17 and poor, i used Jensen for my amp and subs ...and front speakers (yes i mismatched speakers....3 1/2 is a werid weird size) i can say, although jensen is cheap...they are my favorite cheap brand.

Too bad I am now using all infinity speakers, with JL amps and a AVIC-D3 now....my my, how getting out of college pays off.

 

[Yan00LX]

Is there are rule of thumb as to when you should think about routing new wires in the door? As in, how many watts can you run before the stock wiring craps out? At 70W RMS, would I be compromising SQ much?

As stated, HU is already upgraded. I started there cause the stock one gave me headaches (this is a 2000, so it's not the newer double-DIN unit which sounds much better) and I really wanted MP3 and USB. It's your typical 22W RMS / channel (more likely 15W) deal.

Problem is, getting the TBs right away means having to use an in-line inductor to low-pass them (which limits available power cause the HU is still amplifying the highs) and since they are 8ohm, they'd divide the power in half. So that's like 7-8W per speaker tops.
Oh well, they're cheap so it's worth a try, can't be worse than the stock rear speakers!
And with some creative use of hi-pass filters and parametric EQ on my HU, I can optimize the use of the available power.

You guys are awesome.

 

[TStar]

you might be interested in a custom sub enclosure i got left and which is up for sale.

 

[chuyler1]

TStar, do you have a link to the enclosure?

 

[TStar]

yes, go here