Question for those with Cobb Sways

[Silver Ecstasy]

Currently:

Cobb RSB set at "stiff" setting
Stock suspension (but MS lowering springs are waiting to be installed)

I've got a Cobb FSB sitting in my garage but i've been advised against installing it. I know all about how stiffening up the front end will make the car push but I think it would actually tighten up the steering accuracy/stiffness in a good way, on stock equipment.

I've seen pictures of MS3's in hard turns with RSB's only and you can see how the front wheel camber is drastic compared to the rears staying almost neutral in hard cornering.

I do NOT drive my car hard enough to "need" the lowering springs or the FSB at all, but I figured if I like how the FSB improves my onramp/offramp/around town turning abilities, maybe I won't need the improvements of the lowering springs?

I wanted the opinions of wiser MS3 suspension gurus instead first! Thanks guys!

 

[derspi]

I'm no guru but I can tell you that any gains you may think you get with just lowering springs are purely psychological. Lowered ride height or CG isn't a bad thing but out in the real world, if you had to give up suspension travel just to get it, then I always advise against it UNLESS your stock setup has lots of travel to begin with and/or the lowering springs in question are of the very mild drop variety (1" or less). The MS3 doesn't have much suspension travel and in fact, it's the dampers that suck the most. This is why I always suggest ppl get a purpose built coilover setup over most OTS spring & shock combos.

With that said, I think the front swaybar might be a good addition if you want a bit tighter steering. Don't expect miracles though. The extra understeer (if any) isn't a huge detriment out on the street and let's face it, not many of us drive our cars 6/10ths let alone 9/10ths out on a track to really be bothered by a bit more understeer.

 

[meicalnissyen]

I'm no guru but I can tell you that any gains you may think you get with just lowering springs are purely psychological. Lowered ride height or CG isn't a bad thing but out in the real world, if you had to give up suspension travel just to get it, then I always advise against it UNLESS your stock setup has lots of travel to begin with and/or the lowering springs in question are of the very mild drop variety (1" or less). The MS3 doesn't have much suspension travel and in fact, it's the dampers that suck the most. This is why I always suggest ppl get a purpose built coilover setup over most OTS spring & shock combos.

With that said, I think the front swaybar might be a good addition if you want a bit tighter steering. Don't expect miracles though. The extra understeer (if any) isn't a huge detriment out on the street and let's face it, not many of us drive our cars 6/10ths let alone 9/10ths out on a track to really be bothered by a bit more understeer.

I've heard the Koni yellow raise the front end , making the car look wierd proly a perch locaton choice they made.
any reccomendations on replacement struts keeping stock springs/ SW

daily driver with occ autox

 

[Silver Ecstasy]

Well I already have the MS lowering springs and i'm awaiting install. I'm trying to delay the install till next year after the winter falls. It's such a minor drop though (less than 1") so I don't know if it'll be that bad.

The RSB really made the car tighter in turns but the front steering still feels loose (as if the car can't compensate the rear rotation along with the stock front equipment).

I'd almost rather not lower, but i've already purchased them so I figure why not. But i've heard it will be a worse experience installing the springs AND FSB with the car on stock dampers.

 

[bacarl]

I'm not a guru either, but I work with some super-gurus so I'm trying to learn what I can from them

One thing I've picked up is that sta-bars have a minimal impact on steering response, both on-center as well as during transient handling manuevers (eg, a slalom/lane change). Bushings/mounts give first, then the dampers, and finally the bars come in third. So if you leave your mounts and dampers alone, you won't feel much on-center improvement or faster "response" from changing the front bar.

Also, derspi is spot on. If you want to improve the handling of a vehicle, it's most effective to tune the damping, not the springs. It's particularly not helpful to reduce travel. Suspension engineers strive to eek out every mm of travel they can possibly get, to allow the dampers (dampers are key -- did I mention that?) the maximum amount of stroke to do their thing. The more travel they have, the more time they have to control the body motions. Slapping on shorter, stiffer springs only makes the dampers try to work harder, but gives them less time/distance to do it. As a result you can end up with less-controlled body motions (bouncy) and harsh ride, which can ultimately limit grip.

I'm on both stock sta-bars, but I question the need to change either one because I don't have any problem getting the car to rotate just by tuning tire pressures. I think the car is well balanced as-is. One autox earlier this season had a slalom set up along a "crest" in the lot, so the ground sloped away from the line of cones. This meant that as you came around each cone, the rear end would lose some grip from the elevation change. I was glad I didn't have any bigger bar sacrificing rear grip that day!

 

[Silver Ecstasy]

The problem is, there isn't a OTS damper replacement that i've seen work out for our cars. It seems like they're almost not good replacements out there at all.

And i'm not going full coilover. It's really not that serious to me. I'm at a "bolt-on" level with my car, hence the attraction of completing the install of both front and rear sta-bars.

 

[mr_mazda329]

Sta-Bars? Cant yall just call them "sways"?

Silver, if you have the front and are at the bolt-on level, just put that bad boy on and do a little testing with it. If ya like it..ya like it. If ya dont, then take it off. Fine tuning any suspension requires some basic know-how and lots of tinkering to get ones setup ideal for themself. FWIW... an aggressive alignment can make your steering response quicker. Also, stiffer sidewalls on your tires will help with response to.

 

[Silver Ecstasy]

Gotcha. It just isn't the easily install...

I'll have to get to my dad's shop and lift the car up, and then, by the time I'll be ready to install springs, it'll be snow fall already lol. Or I can always wait till next year to do the installs all together.

 

[mazdaspeedster3]

That front sway is a LOT harder than just throwing it in with the springs. Also, a sway is not going to do anything for your steering, not that you would notice anyway...

 

[derspi]

I don't know what direction to lead you into and having H&R coilovers myself (2nd car with these), I guess I'm a bit biased. But with all the fiddling and experimentation you might have to put in with OTS parts like springs, dampers, sways, etc. you would probably have been better served by going with a well matched set of coilovers from the get-go. You'll probably end up spending more and STILL not get the results you want. Mind you, not all coilovers are created equal but most are certainly better than OTS mixing and matching.

But since you already have the MS springs which are very mild, your next step would probably be a set of dampers. It's no secret that Bilstein makes some of the better dampers out there so I would start with them. FYI, my H&R coilovers use specially valved Bilsteins and considering the 1.25 - 1.50" drop, the ride is very well controlled and rarely are they ever jarring (and I'm somewhat picky too when it comes to ride comfort).

 

[derspi]

I've heard the Koni yellow raise the front end , making the car look wierd proly a perch locaton choice they made.
any reccomendations on replacement struts keeping stock springs/ SW

daily driver with occ autox

If you don't care for adjustable damping, I'd try to find an application from Bilstein. My last 3 cars all used Bilstein dampers and I've been pleasantly surprised by their balance of performance and ride quality.

 

[Mid_Life_Crisis]

Currently:

Cobb RSB set at "stiff" setting
Stock suspension (but MS lowering springs are waiting to be installed)

I've got a Cobb FSB sitting in my garage but i've been advised against installing it.

I have the rear bar only and put it at the lesser setting. This is still stiffer than the stock bar and made a nice change in the handling of the car.
I don`t understand people who buy something with two settings and automatically assume that the heavier setting is the optimal one.
The front bar has only one setting. If you look at the stiffness over stock increase of the front bar and compare the increases of the two settings on the rear bar, it seems pretty clear that the lesser rear setting is intended for use with a stock front bar and the heavier setting is for use with the upgraded bar.
For Cobb springs, the change is to slightly stiffen the rear in relation to the front. My idea of how the sways should be set up follows that logic.

 

[derspi]

^^

I see your point but logic doesn't always apply when it comes to suspension tuning. In all forms of racing, factory race teams have identical cars but could have very different suspension setups for different drivers that have different driving styles. Suspension tuning, although conforming to physics, is subjective when placed in the hands of a human driver.

I also have just the rear Cobb RSB and after driving with it on the softer setting for about half a year, I decided to give the stiffer setting a try when I got my AWR endlinks put in and like it better in the stiffer setting. There was a noticeable reduction in push when taking the same turns at higher speeds. Granted, I'm not even doing 8 or 9 tenths (unsafe on public roads) but even at 6 or 7 tenths, I could honestly say I felt a difference.

 

[Silver Ecstasy]

Mid Life - I have my bar at the same setting as yours. "Stiff" is the lesser, "Stiffest" is the strongest.

I'm also pretty sure my TBSS had Bilsteins.

 

[Mid_Life_Crisis]

Mid Life - I have my bar at the same setting as yours. "Stiff" is the lesser, "Stiffest" is the strongest.

I'm also pretty sure my TBSS had Bilsteins.

Oops. Sorry about that. I`ve seen so many posters who did it the other way that I just made an assumption. Oh well, you know what they say about assumptions... they make an ass out of you and umption.

 

[stx195]

suspension

I'm no guru either, but I'm pretty much running your potential setup now on my 08.5.

Cobb rear sway bar on stiff ( not stiffest, just stiff ) setting, and MS springs. I don't plan on going with the front sway bar.

I'm also riding on RE-01R's... 225/40/18's ( bought during the 1/2 price sale... should've bought 2 sets ) on 8" wide Rota P1's. No rubbing whatsoever...

The car feels great... in STU, I'm right on the heals of ( and occasionally beat ) modded STi's, and I've taken 4 out of 5 events from a buddy with an '08 STi - stock - but with the current Azenzi...

I'd tell you to install the springs ( and the rear camber links ) and go play.

Cheers.

 

[Silver Ecstasy]

So you're pretty happy with the springs? Any complaints? How's the drop?

 

[stx195]

MS springs

Yes, I'm happy with the springs. No complaints... the drop is not too great, which is probably why it hasn't become too harsh, but enough to be noticable visually to the trained eye...