Pre Turbo Water/Meth setup-No IC Needed

[fatti03msp]

So here is what my roommate(sen2two) and me have planned for a new setup.

The problem with FMIC kits is the pipping and with having the HiBoost FMIC it has a lil extra then the popular turbolife and perrin IC kits.

So the idea is to just get rid of the IC kit all together and run a simple vacuum powered pre turbo meth setup.

Also running a pre turbo setup will increase the efficiency of a smaller turbo letting it run higher boost levels.

How we plan on doing the setup is actually pretty simple and should be under 200 for the meth setup.

what you need.
A nozzle - more details on what type once we do some math and figure out what will be good for the setup

Boost solenoid - This will open up at a set PSI so the water/meth will be able to flow out of the tank.

Tank - For the tank you want a bottom fed tank, im thinking of making a aluminum tank with some baffles in it to help keep the water/meth from going all over the place and then adding a window so i will be able to see the levels

then what you will do is hook up a vac source to the top of the tank.

This is what happens when you get into boost.... the solenoid will open up letting the meth/water flow. Then from the vac source above the more boost the more water/meth you can get, making it a progressive setup.

This setup has been done before and works, but to my knowledge it has not been tested on a MSP.

For this i will be 100% sure doing a before and after, cause im really hoping this setup will eliminate the need for a IC.

For some info and questions you might have, check out this thread

Discuss......

 

[fatti03msp]

Reserved

 

[littlemimus]

sounds interesting. just make sure you have enough meth/water in there! lol.

 

[yudkib]

thats the ultimate cheap-n-dirty way to make a progressive setup. you might want to consider an adjustable pressure switch, i know hobbs makes them. although if it were me, id just throw a check valve on the line to the top of the tank so it would open as soon as it hit boost.

what solenoids are you using? and dont say the GM typhoon ones since theyre like 50 bucks now that theyre out of production

 

[pavone]

to be honest, i wouldnt run a pre turbo set up, the idea of liquid running through the compressor housing and turbo fins not so good. i would seriously just consider a direct port (for each intake runner) or right before the throttle body. that would be just or even more efficient. ive done a little research on the matter as well. the liquid pre turbo can destroy the turbo.

 

[_MSprotegy]

i'm with PAVONE, i would be a little weary running this type of setup. but if you say it works them by all means try it out. i also think that in the long run it will be more of a PITA to run this kind of set up. if i were you i would consider a water to air set up. you can make the piping short and your boost temps will be more consistant. and you wont have to worry about meth/water levels especially if you are auto-xing all day.

 

[yudkib]

to be honest, i wouldnt run a pre turbo set up, the idea of liquid running through the compressor housing and turbo fins not so good. i would seriously just consider a direct port (for each intake runner) or right before the throttle body. that would be just or even more efficient. ive done a little research on the matter as well. the liquid pre turbo can destroy the turbo.

there was one guy on here like a year ago who kept bragging about how he was gonna use digital/sequential direct port meth injection to build the most whp on the stock bottom end. he had a crazy modded fuel rail with 8 injectors on it, and looke like he was really making progress. then he spun like two bearings and walked a crank to s***, all on seperate engines. now you dont see him around here as much.

i started reading that other thread and despite what they said, i cant imagine meth is good for the turbo seals either... if you run it on the boost side you wont get any flow with the way the sequential setup is run, correct?

 

[disturbedfan121]

theres a guy on miataturbo.net running a similar setup, pushing 14psi i think making about 230whp non intercooled meth only.

 

[Knox Joe]

People have been using alcohol cooling in place of intercoolers for years. It was first utilized in old airplanes, used because of the new altitudes reached at the time.

 

[fatti03msp]

thats the ultimate cheap-n-dirty way to make a progressive setup. you might want to consider an adjustable pressure switch, i know hobbs makes them. although if it were me, id just throw a check valve on the line to the top of the tank so it would open as soon as it hit boost.

what solenoids are you using? and dont say the GM typhoon ones since theyre like 50 bucks now that theyre out of production

no def. not using the GM one. The parts im using looking at to use are actually good quality.

as far is this setting being cheap and dirty....... Maybe, i would say it sounds to good to be true to work as is lol

to be honest, i wouldnt run a pre turbo set up, the idea of liquid running through the compressor housing and turbo fins not so good. i would seriously just consider a direct port (for each intake runner) or right before the throttle body. that would be just or even more efficient. ive done a little research on the matter as well. the liquid pre turbo can destroy the turbo.

yes it can destroy the turbo, but that is if you dont set it up right. its the water drop lets that will do the damage to the blade. Once you get it setup to where its a mist and only a mist, then you will be golden. Its all about atomizing

i'm with PAVONE, i would be a little weary running this type of setup. but if you say it works them by all means try it out. i also think that in the long run it will be more of a PITA to run this kind of set up. if i were you i would consider a water to air set up. you can make the piping short and your boost temps will be more consistant. and you wont have to worry about meth/water levels especially if you are auto-xing all day.

air to water i would say is harder to setup then this.

theres a guy on miataturbo.net running a similar setup, pushing 14psi i think making about 230whp non intercooled meth only.

nice

People have been using alcohol cooling in place of intercoolers for years. It was first utilized in old airplanes, used because of the new altitudes reached at the time.

thats what i have been reading, lets just see how it works with a car setup

 

[yudkib]

ive read nothing but good things about the GM one, but i forget this would be used as a hydraulic solenoid and not pneumatic. the people who sell megasquirt kits (DIYautotune.com) sell a boost solenoid for 39 or so, thats hands-down the best price ive found on one so far.

and it might sound too good to be true, but think about it... you have to build decent pressure to get the fuel through the atomizer, if you put more pressure (from boost) onto the fluid then it should push more through the atomizer. the question is how well it will scale... will 10% more boost mean 10% more meth.

and thats interesting that the droplets are causing the damage to the turbo. like i said, i figured it was the chemical composition. it makes sense but i just figured all setups like this were atomized.

 

[Wagonbacker9]

and thats interesting that the droplets are causing the damage to the turbo. like i said, i figured it was the chemical composition. it makes sense but i just figured all setups like this were atomized.

think about a bottle of windex. if you pull the trigger slowly, you get drops that fall off the nozzle. if you pull it medium you get something of a stream, and if you pull it very fast, you get a cloud. Thats one issue you'd have to deal with in a setup like this. that progression would have to move very quickly, which means a small nozzle, espcially at our relatively low boost levels.

 

[pavone]

what kind of costs are you looking at btw? you can get kits with 250psi pumps that atomize properly, aem makes one, snow performance, and also another one online that like alcohol-injection.com that make nice kits. they range from 250- to like 400 bucks for everything needed. so what saving would you be looking at?

 

[fatti03msp]

ive read nothing but good things about the GM one, but i forget this would be used as a hydraulic solenoid and not pneumatic. the people who sell megasquirt kits (DIYautotune.com) sell a boost solenoid for 39 or so, thats hands-down the best price ive found on one so far.

and it might sound too good to be true, but think about it... you have to build decent pressure to get the fuel through the atomizer, if you put more pressure (from boost) onto the fluid then it should push more through the atomizer. the question is how well it will scale... will 10% more boost mean 10% more meth.

and thats interesting that the droplets are causing the damage to the turbo. like i said, i figured it was the chemical composition. it makes sense but i just figured all setups like this were atomized.

ya the scalling is something we are going to be testing, the nozzle of choice is def. going to be small to help avoid droplets at low PSI but no too small where it maxes out soon.

think about a bottle of windex. if you pull the trigger slowly, you get drops that fall off the nozzle. if you pull it medium you get something of a stream, and if you pull it very fast, you get a cloud. Thats one issue you'd have to deal with in a setup like this. that progression would have to move very quickly, which means a small nozzle, espcially at our relatively low boost levels.

im trying to get the setup to work to 15psi

when i get back to orlando ill be able to talk more to sen2two and get things moving a lil faster

 

[1fastms]

Everybody should know that it works. Now in order for it to work, it needs to get done right. Another thing you could do is runn the stock or aftermarket SMI for the low boost and regular driving which will help the lag and activated the methonol past certain boost level. Good Luck, hope you make it work

 

[XoX1de]

Ive done this before but it seems the car turns gutless... The best would be both intercooler and water injection together.

 

[dmention7]

I'm curious why you plan to run the nozzle pre-turbo?

I know it can be done, and I understand wanting to make a little turbo run more efficiently, but every water-meth reference I've read strongly advises against spraying pre-turbo for the reasons mentioned above. It just seems like an approach that requires a more precise and complicated setup versus post-turbo, while your posts make it sound like you're taking a rougher DIY approach. Especially the idea about using manifold pressure to pressurize the line. The off-the-shelf meth kits use pumps capable of up to 250psi to ensure adequate flow and complete atomization. I'm by no means an expert, but I have a hard time seeing both adequate flow and complete atomization through any given nozzle size across boost and rpm ranges.

Not hating here, just asking questions!

 

[Wagonbacker9]

doing so basically totally changes the compressor map giving you very different boost characteristics, theoretically allowing you to run more boost out of a smaller turbo efficiently.

 

[yudkib]

I'm curious why you plan to run the nozzle pre-turbo?

I know it can be done, and I understand wanting to make a little turbo run more efficiently, but every water-meth reference I've read strongly advises against spraying pre-turbo for the reasons mentioned above. It just seems like an approach that requires a more precise and complicated setup versus post-turbo, while your posts make it sound like you're taking a rougher DIY approach. Especially the idea about using manifold pressure to pressurize the line. The off-the-shelf meth kits use pumps capable of up to 250psi to ensure adequate flow and complete atomization. I'm by no means an expert, but I have a hard time seeing both adequate flow and complete atomization through any given nozzle size across boost and rpm ranges.

Not hating here, just asking questions!

he has to do it preturbo to pressurize the line. if theres pressure on both sides of the nozzle then the meth wont go anywhere

 

[dmention7]

Well, I understand that, lol. That's why I mentioned using a high-pressure pump.