Shockingly my stock fp was holding up pretty well when I was modded before. If I remember correctly I was seeing 1700psi towards the top of the rpms. However, it never hurts to upgrade the pump on these cars! I will keep a close eye on things before the tune and decide if I need to make some changes. Thanks for the heads up.
P & L Motorsports, Dynojet tuning in Franklin Park IL
- Thread starter Jchouin1
- Start date
Shockingly my stock fp was holding up pretty well when I was modded before. If I remember correctly I was seeing 1700psi towards the top of the rpms. However, it never hurts to upgrade the pump on these cars! I will keep a close eye on things before the tune and decide if I need to make some changes. Thanks for the heads up.
took the words right outta my mouth... I had my tune today ... and looking at your tune we are almost identical lol
one word to describe it now is Smooth.... the power is gradual and consistent.
there is virtually NO torque steer, and Ive done a few WOT pulls on the back roads on my way home to try and find some. It's incredible, the power is harnessed extremely well I just wish I got a TMIC or FMIC before doing it now... ah well.
yeah that's kinda crazy how close we are with a different bag-o-parts on our cars! Haha you are having the same feelings about intercoolers that I had about a downpipe! I guess the thirst for "more" is never quenched! haha
solidtrance
Member
- :
- HIS: 2005 RX-8 WWP GT 6MT* HERS: 2006 Speed6 BCM 6MT**
Like you need any more power.....J/K, I am thinking about going to them as well. Maybe I'll go be a spectator for your tune.
well it was killin me cause i had a month between teh first attempt at the tune (see post on page one) and yesterdays tune... I could have pulled the trigger on a ETS TMIC for sure.
i shoulda done it. I cant believe Jorge managed to get 291whp at only 17psi though... I wasnt expecting that, I figure it would be more like 270-275
Nliiitend1
Member
Update? How's this tune working out for you?
its been fine..
the only "issue" I might have is that I feel that it could use a little more peak torque... I asked for a conservative tune and I got it IMO. but now that I've been driving it around for 2 weeks I feel that in the higher rev range it could be a bit more, maybe another 20lbs.
but yeah the one word that keeps coming outta my mouth when im driving is "smooth".
I feel like in the future I may add an IC upgrade and ask for a little more power.
the only "issue" I might have is that I feel that it could use a little more peak torque... I asked for a conservative tune and I got it IMO. but now that I've been driving it around for 2 weeks I feel that in the higher rev range it could be a bit more, maybe another 20lbs.
but yeah the one word that keeps coming outta my mouth when im driving is "smooth".
I feel like in the future I may add an IC upgrade and ask for a little more power.
be careful asking for more on your stock bottom end...i am currently rebuilding my engine after bending a rod last week. no joke.
P&L Motorsports
Member
Well, that's good to know! I had heard that the rod was the Achilles heel of the MS3/6. Now I know that its much more obvious then I had feared!
When you guys get more details on post mortum, please let us all know!
-Jorge
allrighty then... nevermind... no more torque for me. though I dont need any more bottom end, its the top end that id be interested in see more.
awww crap
solidtrance
Member
- :
- HIS: 2005 RX-8 WWP GT 6MT* HERS: 2006 Speed6 BCM 6MT**
Wow, this should go down in history as the worst post ever by a "tuner".
Customer: "Hey my engine blew up a few days after you tuned it."
What does the tuner say......
is it....."I'm sorry to hear that......."
or maybe...."do you know what caused it?"
nope its.....
Customer: "Hey my engine blew up a few days after you tuned it."
What does the tuner say......
is it....."I'm sorry to hear that......."
or maybe...."do you know what caused it?"
nope its.....
P&L Motorsports
Member
I know you're being quite serious, but I'm honestly trying to understand how this is the worst post ever?
I'm being acknowledging, and open about it; where most would hide and try and back pedal. I'm offering and encouraging an open discussion about the technicalities of WHAT happened, and most importantly why; where most would rather something like that simply "go away".
I don't know. Maybe I'm just used to a more technical discussion and openness about failure, from other markets. Discussions that serve to benefit us all, because being open and honest helps the end users and professionals identify weaknesses, faults, and limits.
Frankly, until I happen to read it, no one had approached me on it, or even brought it to my attention.
But, this is the way I am. I'm blunt. I'm black and white. If I screw up, I'll be the first to stand up on a soap box and admit it. I'm a human being just like you. The difference being, if I'm to be held accountable for something, I only ask to know WHAT I did, or WHAT that limit was. I can't be expected to learn from a potential mistake, if I can't even find out what it was in the first place.
Moving on. I had heard rods were the limiting factors. But at 19 lbs of boost, one would think due diligence was being done. Thus why I'm being open minded. If you would brand my style of investigating a problem as "the worst", then I can accept that. You are, after all, entitled to your opinions. But perhaps you should see there is a method to my bluntness. Something you guys really haven't been used to (from what I've seen on the various Mazda forums).
Cheers!
-Jorge
P&L Motorsports
Member
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5100187&postcount=11 <-- Just as an example of how I identify problems.
If you look back in Early January of this OP's thread, you can see the dynoplot and the linearity of it.
Note his comments about how things are load related. Mazda's MS computers (in the 3/6) don't work the same way as most other EMS. They work on a model of requested torque. Which means that you setup ideal targets for stuff like boost, but in reality it will do what it can to bring the car back up to its level of R/T, even if that means over running the turbo a touch. In other words, its trying to hit those torque targets as fast as they can. In lower gears the R/T tables are programmed to be progressive due to a lack of traction. But in the last three gears, they are linearized to try and make maximum torque, all the time.
By post mortum, if the pistons confirm what he'd been monitoring (a complete lack of knock correction), then I know its not going to be excess cylinder pressure spiking due to too much timing, much less blatant detonation (which will pound out bearings and break ring lands), or pre ignition due to a drop of fuel pressure (which would result in holes being punched through the top of the pistons). But, it would show that the rods simply can't handle that type of torque, and they physically fatigue.
It still strikes me as odd, because the other few dozen people haven't exhibited a failure, and I've done tons of research on what others have "pushed" on the platform, and 300lb/ft of torque isn't anything big.
So (again, in black and white), either there are some monumentally lucky people out there, or this is a fluke, or something ELSE is wrong.
Frankly, I consider this a much better approach, then "sorry dude, too bad, that sucks!".
But all I ask, with all due respect, is you don't put words in people's mouths or misrepresent the situation. To say it blew up "days" after is an exaggeration by any stretch (tuned early January). Let this pan out, and be objective about it, before passing some judgement. You're welcomed to call me and discuss this if you'd like (847-678-4311), here, or privately. I have nothing to hide, and am an open book.
Its just how I roll, man.
-Jorge
If you look back in Early January of this OP's thread, you can see the dynoplot and the linearity of it.
Note his comments about how things are load related. Mazda's MS computers (in the 3/6) don't work the same way as most other EMS. They work on a model of requested torque. Which means that you setup ideal targets for stuff like boost, but in reality it will do what it can to bring the car back up to its level of R/T, even if that means over running the turbo a touch. In other words, its trying to hit those torque targets as fast as they can. In lower gears the R/T tables are programmed to be progressive due to a lack of traction. But in the last three gears, they are linearized to try and make maximum torque, all the time.
By post mortum, if the pistons confirm what he'd been monitoring (a complete lack of knock correction), then I know its not going to be excess cylinder pressure spiking due to too much timing, much less blatant detonation (which will pound out bearings and break ring lands), or pre ignition due to a drop of fuel pressure (which would result in holes being punched through the top of the pistons). But, it would show that the rods simply can't handle that type of torque, and they physically fatigue.
It still strikes me as odd, because the other few dozen people haven't exhibited a failure, and I've done tons of research on what others have "pushed" on the platform, and 300lb/ft of torque isn't anything big.
So (again, in black and white), either there are some monumentally lucky people out there, or this is a fluke, or something ELSE is wrong.
Frankly, I consider this a much better approach, then "sorry dude, too bad, that sucks!".
But all I ask, with all due respect, is you don't put words in people's mouths or misrepresent the situation. To say it blew up "days" after is an exaggeration by any stretch (tuned early January). Let this pan out, and be objective about it, before passing some judgement. You're welcomed to call me and discuss this if you'd like (847-678-4311), here, or privately. I have nothing to hide, and am an open book.
Its just how I roll, man.
-Jorge
solidtrance
Member
- :
- HIS: 2005 RX-8 WWP GT 6MT* HERS: 2006 Speed6 BCM 6MT**
Jorge,
Perhaps my post could have been worded more precisely. I had no intention to call your methods or quality of work into question. I have heard nothing but positive things about your work here at P&L. The tone and tenor of your post was what I was responding to. I know that the Mazda community really appreciate the work that you all do, however you post seemed extremely insensitive. For the record I have recommended you to more than one person in the past and will continue to recommend you as the tuner of choice here in the Chitown area.
Seems like you and I have similar ways of handling difficult situations. I also am not big on assigning blame, but would to prefer to concentrate on solutions. I appreciate your candor, and the after reading your last two post I understand your point of view. I know that when you are tuning an engine and looking for the last little bit of performance engine failure is a real possibility. I was a bit surprised with how casually you responded here. I hope this all works out for the best and I am sure you all will take care of this guy when he gets his engine sorted out.
Perhaps my post could have been worded more precisely. I had no intention to call your methods or quality of work into question. I have heard nothing but positive things about your work here at P&L. The tone and tenor of your post was what I was responding to. I know that the Mazda community really appreciate the work that you all do, however you post seemed extremely insensitive. For the record I have recommended you to more than one person in the past and will continue to recommend you as the tuner of choice here in the Chitown area.
Seems like you and I have similar ways of handling difficult situations. I also am not big on assigning blame, but would to prefer to concentrate on solutions. I appreciate your candor, and the after reading your last two post I understand your point of view. I know that when you are tuning an engine and looking for the last little bit of performance engine failure is a real possibility. I was a bit surprised with how casually you responded here. I hope this all works out for the best and I am sure you all will take care of this guy when he gets his engine sorted out.
P&L Motorsports
Member
Thanks Trance, I appreciate the heads up and straight forward reply!
Jeff, it was good talking to you this morning. If you can post up pictures of the rod. You also mentioned comparing it to a normal NA engine's rod, in terms of how thin and flimsy it is. I'd love to see it compared to your new rod!
We all serve to gain from this! Thanks everyone for the support and interest!
-Jorge
Jeff, it was good talking to you this morning. If you can post up pictures of the rod. You also mentioned comparing it to a normal NA engine's rod, in terms of how thin and flimsy it is. I'd love to see it compared to your new rod!
We all serve to gain from this! Thanks everyone for the support and interest!
-Jorge
solidtrance
Member
- :
- HIS: 2005 RX-8 WWP GT 6MT* HERS: 2006 Speed6 BCM 6MT**
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P&L Motorsports
Member
Wow!
How it didn't outright snap is a testimony to the softness of the metalurgy!
Jeff: The bearings on that cylinder and that piston and rod, if you wouldn't mind, I have a full on light table and camera setup used for macro work. I'd love to do some super high resolution shots of that stuff to have for comparative purposes. When convenient, I'd love to get the stuff from you. I can always meet you one night and pick it up. I'd only need it for a few days. But I'd love to measure stuff like deflection, torsional twist etc. Start a spreadsheet going.
Of course, the info would be available on here as well.
If we can all start digging into the how, it will prevent it from happening. Not a "hard limit" per se, but at least a ball park of what we can reasonably expect.
In hindsight.... its a LONG shot, but did you happen to have the for-thought to save the oil in a clean container? A simple $29 oil analysis would speak volumes about what happened in the last thousand miles. Whether it was a "fluke", or something building over time.
-Jorge
How it didn't outright snap is a testimony to the softness of the metalurgy!
Jeff: The bearings on that cylinder and that piston and rod, if you wouldn't mind, I have a full on light table and camera setup used for macro work. I'd love to do some super high resolution shots of that stuff to have for comparative purposes. When convenient, I'd love to get the stuff from you. I can always meet you one night and pick it up. I'd only need it for a few days. But I'd love to measure stuff like deflection, torsional twist etc. Start a spreadsheet going.
Of course, the info would be available on here as well.
If we can all start digging into the how, it will prevent it from happening. Not a "hard limit" per se, but at least a ball park of what we can reasonably expect.
In hindsight.... its a LONG shot, but did you happen to have the for-thought to save the oil in a clean container? A simple $29 oil analysis would speak volumes about what happened in the last thousand miles. Whether it was a "fluke", or something building over time.
-Jorge
Nliiitend1
Member
Just as an "FYI," there has already been a LOT of investigating regarding this phenomenon on this engine going on over at one of the "other" forums for quite some time, and it might do you some good to check some of those threads out....
I believe the name to one of the threads is something on the lines of "Rod bending observations."
I suggest a Google search for "Rod bending observations mazda" if you're interested...
