NSN Motorsports Auto Tranny Cooler

[Badger Biker]

I think I have found the dumbest person on the internet!

AzMz3: Please keep further inflammatory posts against members like this to yourself. There's been enough of this on other forums from you, and it will NOT be tolerated here. You can maintain civil discussions without being so condescending. Consider it a warning.

Steve, thanks for the clarification of getting all the info out there. Let me know what else I can do to help out.

 

[TurfBurn]

Also of note... all vehicle fluids have optimal working temperatures... for example oil is best when run at 203-230F, breaks down at 266F in many cases, and has measurable horsepower losses in motors above 240F, and belwo 200F. The same situation applies to transmission fluids. The ideal working temperatures for best life and minimum power losses will vary depending on the Mercron rating of the fluid and some other factors.

 

[TurfBurn]

You can't buy this cooler setup from anywhere for less. You can by "A" cooler for less sure... but you'll buy a piece of junk in some cases, or simply an inferior cooler in other cases... but you will not get an equivalent cooler with the hardware and all your shipping costs for less. That I can guarantee. I'm buying the parts direct from the distributors that none of you have access too... Are there cheaper "kits" out there? sure... but they are not the same, or of this quality/capacity.

 

[Badger Biker]

As far as for turbo, yes this will help for keeping the tranny cooler which helps one of the issues that arises from the turbo power loads the tranny would see, however as you get into marginally reasonable amounts of boost there are likely to be a host of other issues that would arise that will not be affected or helped in the least by a tranny cooler.

AzMz3, it is obvious here that you are not reading what other people are posting, and then making claims that are not needed based on on your failure to read properly.

AzMz3, you were also asked to provide these tranny specs, so it would be wise to post your sources so you can continue to have a semblance of intelligence in this matter.

Keep this to a technical discussion, anymore comments along the lines of

ou obviously don't know anything about an automatic tranny.

on your behalf will be deleted immediatly.

 

[AzMz3]

In my research I have not come across specific torque numbers and holding capacities that have been published by reputable sources. So if you have them please do share!
Umm... not exactly... the higher quality ones reject more heat and provide greater cooling effects. By your logic there is no reason to ever put in a bigger intercooler in a turbo car... or to change the number of passes in a radiator... A cheaper one will cool fluid.. but not enough under heavy loads. As I stated earlier we worked directly with the factory to size the cooler based on fluid capacity and vehicle weight and output.
It WILL help heat rejection and fluid degredation of the auto tranny in an FI application.
Ever think about taking your own advice?
This coming from the guy who has no concept of what overcooling of fluids does to a transmission...

I do know what overcooling is but I hardly see it being a problem here with this application. Over cooling is defined as the temp of the engine/tranny not meeting specs within a certain time. What do they do to a tranny..hard shifts. Has it been linked to anything else? I'll let you dig that up.
You are making it sound like the tranny fluid will be super cold the whole day.

And I never stated a specific cooler, so you are basing your response off of what?

And you still don't understand the fact that the cooler will only be a band-aid for a turbo, even if it last that long. You must do other upgrades, I'm sure many will wish it was as easy as you think it is to protect the tranny.
But you simply don't understand how they work. You will always have friction in an auto tranny. Friction wears parts down. Your cooler will not prevent that.

edit: Taking your own advice. Irrelevant parts of this post have been deleted to prevent further trolling. -Badger

 

[TurfBurn]

I do know what overcooling is but I hardly see it being a problem here with this application. Over cooling is defined as the temp of the engine/tranny not meeting specs within a certain time. What do they do to a tranny..hard shifts. Has it been linked to anything else? I'll let you dig that up.
You are making it sound like the tranny fluid will be super cold the whole day.

It can significantly lengthen warm up time.. in some cases the extended high pressures from high viscosity fluids can result in seals wearing out sooner/rupturing in some cases. How in this application would that not be an issue? Badger Biker lives where I do.. we regularily see -15 degree days in the winter... unless he wants to remove that cooler every winter he has to be concerned about it causing warm up times to be extended and the fact that you get significantly greater power train losses... which is a concern for everyone... it is has been shown in some studies that I've read that an increase in temperature of about 150 degrees from cold to operating results in roughly a 35% increase in power output in the system... so if you overcool the fluid below optimal you can significantly affect power output in a negative manner... again all things we've thought about and covered that you seem to be ignorant of or choose not to discuss... you were the one that indicated for me to be an idiot for suggesting over cooling "what is this a refrigerator" comment you did before... now you suddenly admit that it does have some "less than desireable" affects.... and all this grief because you ran a couple tests daily driving your car with a transmission temp gauge on a different tranny with a different cooler, it's simply ridiculous!

And I never stated a specific cooler, so you are basing your response off of what?

Well you sure can't get a cooler of this surface area and number of passes for anything less than I'm charging, and certainly not for 1/4 of the cost. You also indicated in a previous post on the 3 forums, or condoned a post from another member about 20 dollar units from autozone.. which are nothing but junk.

And you still don't understand the fact that the cooler will only be a band-aid for a turbo, even if it last that long. You must do other upgrades, I'm sure many will wish it was as easy as you think it is to protect the tranny.
But you simply don't understand how they work. You will always have friction in an auto tranny. Friction wears parts down. Your cooler will not prevent that.

and how many times to I have to state that the purpose in a turbo application would purely be for preventing further fluid degredation due to the higher temps from the higher loads? You just are so intent upon seeing opposite of this product that you ignore everything that is stated..

 

[AzMz3]

A cooler will only do so much, and when you already have one installed I'm sure there is not that much of a noticeable difference with a $20 one compared to yours.

And fluid degredation is one of your problems when boost or even adding HP to an automatic tranny.
You don't realize that it will not stop the other parts from going out. Clutches will wear, shifts will get sloppy and a tranny cooler will not stop this.
You act like the worst thing that will happen is that the fluid will degrade. So never did I say that is not a good idea to have one on a upgraded tranny.

So to end this.
This tranny cooler won't hurt.
This tranny cooler will not save your tranny when boosting.
And yes I seriously think this tranny cooler is over kill and a cheap $20 one from Autozone will do just as good.

 

[Badger Biker]

This thread was already ended on a technical level with the postings of TurfBurn.

We're lucky enough to be able to read all of what you have been saying, AzMz3, so we really DO know what your opinion is worth, and it isn't much. You fail to read what is being said, and you make assumptions based on things that are never even said in the first place.

So you and anyone else are complete idiots if you think a tranny cooler on a turbo Mazda3 is all you need.

No one has EVER in the HISTORY OF THIS THREAD stated that a cooler is all you need. I still have NO idea where you are getting this information from. You seem to read only one bit of information without looking at everything else that is being said.

You have done nothing but show yourself as someone who can throw around a little bit of knowledge (that is even wrong half of the time) and make it look semi intelligent, but the overall basis behind it is hollow and lacking of any real factual information with proper sources of experience cited.

You have turned away members from other forums with your attitude, and it will NOT be allowed here. Further posts from you in this thread will not be tolerated (which should not be a problem, as you said that you are done yourself) and future posts of this inflammatory nature on any future threads will not be tolerated either. I will NOT have other contributing members leave this site because of the attitude problems from a couple bad eggs.

Please keep further discussion in this thread related directly to the cooler. I apologize for letting this thread turn into another muck fest, but it happened on 3forums, so it was just about time that AzMz3 did the same exact thing over here. Further trolling (and that's what this behavior amounts to) will NOT (repeat) NOT be tolerated, just to make sure everyone gets that.

Thank you everyone for sticking with this thread through all this, and hopefully discussion can continue on a good level. Special thanks to Steve of NSN Motorsports for bringing us his years of technical knowledge to this, and helping the aftermarket community grow with the Mazda 3, and Goldwing for his technical knowledge as well. REAL knowledge like this is greatly appreciated, and helps put certain people in their place.

Now, lets continue on and get working on this group buy.

(group)

 

[TurfBurn]

So to end this.
This tranny cooler won't hurt.
This tranny cooler will not save your tranny when boosting.
And yes I seriously think this tranny cooler is over kill and a cheap $20 one from Autozone will do just as good.

I never said it was all that you need for boosting. I specifically said it is there to help fluid degradation. There are other things that are required for beefing up the tranny if you go past the design tolerances Mazda created.

Obviously you then realize that this cooler is superior to others if you believe it to be "overkill".

I will leave the rest of your comments to be interpreted freely by the others who will read this. I'm confident in my representation of the product and what we are producing.

I apologize to anyone that gets a bad impression of us or our mentality based on my commenting above. I do assure you that the last thing anybody with NSN is interested in doing is dealing with confrontational antics. We stand by our products, and even more so our customers.

Thanks all! Happy motoring,

Steve

 

[TurfBurn]

As far as I know, you can't put a cooler an an MTX. There is no oil pump to move the fluid through the cooler nor are there lines to attach the cooler to.

MTX trannies don't generate the friction and heat that ATXs do, so there's really no need.

You actually do get a CONSIDERABLE amount of heat in MTX's simply due to fluid movements and gear contact friction... it's one of the reasons for the venting on MTX's.. I've even seen MTX's boil over when filled a bit too much and then driven hard... you are correct about needing a pump however... and you are also correct about there being no available lines.

 

[Captain KRM P5]

the FN4A-EL automatic transmission used in the Mazda3 is also used in the last Protege according to all my technical resources. There have been plenty of reliable turbocharged automatic proteges, some with trans coolers and some without. I don't know of any which came apart under load at something like 7 psi, it has taken more boost than that to do them in.

 

[TurfBurn]

Thanks Ken! Great additions as always

And I do happen to have the tech manuals and specs for the FN4A-EL too

And again as I was pointing out before the tranny cooler helps fluid life... which in turn can then help tranny life... the cooler itself does not help the tranny, but rather the fluid. Transmission fluid degredation is what causes approximately 80% of all automatic transmission failures. So hence... keeping the fluid cooler helps in the long run reliability... every 20 degrees below critical that you can keep the tranmission fluid you extend it's life by 50%. And the more heat you introduce to the fluid via heavy loads and hard driving and higher power outputs, the more cooling capacity you need to reject the heat created, and again, thus the justification for the cooler...

You can run without a cooler in any case you want... but you will then have to switch your fluid at much tighter intervals, if auto-xing possibly as tight as ever 30K... and considering it takes 7.2 quarts to do the fluid change with dexron 3... two fluid changes you'd pay for one of the coolers... or if you take it to the shop to have your flush done... saving yourself one change with the cooler pays for it right there...

 

[goldwing2000]

You actually do get a CONSIDERABLE amount of heat in MTX's simply due to fluid movements and gear contact friction... it's one of the reasons for the venting on MTX's..

I completely agree. Not near as much heat as an ATX will generate, though. Much more friction inside. And the heat isn't as bad for an MTX as it is for an ATX. No hydraulic seals or friction materials to go kaput!

But, as we both know, it's a moot point. One would have to design a whole system to cool the fluid and the benefit would be minimal, at best.

 

[TurfBurn]

I completely agree. Not near as much heat as an ATX will generate, though. Much more friction inside. And the heat isn't as bad for an MTX as it is for an ATX. No hydraulic seals or friction materials to go kaput!

But, as we both know, it's a moot point. One would have to design a whole system to cool the fluid and the benefit would be minimal, at best.

you've got PM on this one to keep us on topic... but yep it would require an entire system and the benefit could be quite questionable in most cases.

 

[TurfBurn]

the FN4A-EL automatic transmission used in the Mazda3 is also used in the last Protege according to all my technical resources. There have been plenty of reliable turbocharged automatic proteges, some with trans coolers and some without. I don't know of any which came apart under load at something like 7 psi, it has taken more boost than that to do them in.

I did some additional research just to further confirm what Ken said even though I had heard it before. It is indeed correct that the Protege and 3 both run the same exact transmission. AzMz3 is incorrect about the Focus transmission to an extent... and it was what I had thought/knew before... that the Focus transmission is a derivative of the Protege transmission but NOT the same (essentially brother transmissions)... they use a different set of valve bodies and so forth that do hurt the overall reliability and performance of that transmission relative to the Mazda tranny. They run under different transmission codes for manufacture. They do share a goodly number of internal components however. So just some more tech info for those that are interested and it helps for other modifications and improvements in the future... I don't always have time to look up and post the tech info behind the things we do... and most vendors don't! And even with a lot of research and information you can still get sketchy info and supposed "facts" so we are additionally careful for that.. some of the sources on the above info were a bit sketchy, but enough sources collaborated that I have reasonable confidence in all of the above since multiple sources carried the same info.

 

[goldwing2000]

Thanks for the extra effort, Steve. (2thumbs)

 

[AzMz3]

I did some additional research just to further confirm what Ken said even though I had heard it before. It is indeed correct that the Protege and 3 both run the same exact transmission. AzMz3 is incorrect about the Focus transmission to an extent... and it was what I had thought/knew before... that the Focus transmission is a derivative of the Protege transmission but NOT the same (essentially brother transmissions)... they use a different set of valve bodies and so forth that do hurt the overall reliability and performance of that transmission relative to the Mazda tranny. They run under different transmission codes for manufacture. They do share a goodly number of internal components however. So just some more tech info for those that are interested and it helps for other modifications and improvements in the future...

Actually you are wrong, I'd like to see where you got that information. And as for the Protege's running fine with no tranny upgrades, do a search and you will find that there is not that much true to that.

As for vavle bodies, how do you figure they are different and more importantly how do you come to the conclusion that the Focus has the weaker. Do you even know what valve bodies do?

The 2 trannies are the same, just different names. I know for dealling with a few differnt companies that make upgrades for them.

The weakest part of the auto tranny in the Focus/Mazda3 is the clutch packs.

 

[TurfBurn]

Actually you are wrong, I'd like to see where you got that information. And as for the Protege's running fine with no tranny upgrades, do a search and you will find that there is not that much true to that.

As for vavle bodies, how do you figure they are different and more importantly how do you come to the conclusion that the Focus has the weaker. Do you even know what valve bodies do?

The 2 trannies are the same, just different names. I know for dealling with a few differnt companies that make upgrades for them.

The weakest part of the auto tranny in the Focus/Mazda3 is the clutch packs.

Well for starters the focus uses 4F27E transmission versus the Mazda Protege FN4A-EL

http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/0311mm_focus/

The difference in the valve bodies is that the Protege tranny uses metal ones according to some people, versus the plastic ones used in the Focus transmission. I have not personally verified it but have found it in several places online.

I need to run to a meeting right now... but if you really want to go hear I'll post everything necessary to refute all your statements again!

EDIT: And if you do go back up and read my statement you'll notice I indicated the majority of internal componenta ARE the same between the boxes... which would include the clutch packs and bands as well...

 

[goldwing2000]

Steve, don't bother to reply.

AzM3, Let's see... you accuse everybody else of making false, unsupported statements and then you turn around and do exactly the same thing.

If you want to continue to argue about this, take it to PM. We don't need to read any more of your crap.

You are officially banned from this thread as of right now. Any further posts from you will be deleted.

 

[TurfBurn]

Steve, don't bother to reply.

Can do!