Nitrogen standard?

twintrbo

Member
I just got my 09 Touring and I think I have Nitrogen filled tires. Is this a dealer thing or factory? Anyone else have it? Just wondering if I'm unique here because no one mentioned it, I just noticed that the valve caps have some reference to it.
 
The idea is that your wheels are lighter/lower momentum so your gas mileage improves. I don't know for sure. In order to reap all the benefit, you have to top up with nitrogen too, which is a hassle to me. Not even including that, the guy at the tire store (when pressed) said it would only save me a few bucks in fuel over a use season (I use winter tires too).
 
According to getnitrogen.org, the only real benefit is that the nitrogen molecules are bigger and the tires dont lose air as fast. From there, its a trickle down of benefits including the one you mentioned about fuel mileage. FWIW they said air we breathe is 87% (or so) nitrogen so I dont think its worth the trouble since I check my tires regularly and we have TPMS standard on top of that and where the heck do I find nitrogen to fill it? (Costco does have it but I think you need to buy their tires) Thanks for the feedback
 
Mostly it's a means of dealers and tire stores to charge a premium for nitrogen, when the air we breath is already ~80% nitrogen. The theory is the nitrogen molecules are bigger and so air loss is lessened, but a Consumer Reports study found that the difference in pressure loss between plain compressed air and nitrogen was 1.3% over 12 months. Hardly worth the extra cost.

For accuracy's sake, our air is 78.09% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.03% carbon dioxide and the rest (all 0.003%) is trace gases such as neon, helium, methane, krypton, hydrogen and xenon.

Aircraft use nitrogen as it reduces issues in temperature change between the freezing temps at 35,000' and the almost instantaneous 200 degree rise when landing and braking to a stop. Something passenger tires don't deal with!

Race car teams use nitrogen, but their tires are subjected to forces much higher than normal driving and even a difference of 0.5% can affect handling. They also have higher operating cost budgets than almost all households.

There is no issue with using normal compressed air to refill nitrogen filled tires. Eventually the 100% nitrogen will be replaced with 80% nitrogen, and some water vapour.
 
Big O is the only shop in my area where I can get nitrogen for my tires, and let me tell you that it's one of the best $20 I ever spent on my car. Used to be where my tires would keep losing a slight amount of air and I'd have to stop at the station every other week, pull over to the separate section for air and water, check tire pressure, pump the air, adjust pressure accordingly, maneuver the air hose around the car to check each wheel, then have to find a way to clean my grimy hands while wishing I was in the warm comfort of my car. Big deal, you might say, but it was enough of a hassle for me to switch to nitrogen and not have to worry about further air leakage. I don't care what Consumer Reports may say, nitrogen works excellently for me. I have never had to top off my air again since switching, plus it's supposed to be better for the environment.
 
I wonder how they are able to fill the tires with pure nitrogen. Are they going to bleed the old air and then vacuum off the remaining volume of air inside the tire cavity? Then pump in the nitrogen?
 
I wonder how they are able to fill the tires with pure nitrogen. Are they going to bleed the old air and then vacuum off the remaining volume of air inside the tire cavity? Then pump in the nitrogen?

You really think they flush your tires to remove residual air? The nitrogen filled tires racket is nothing but a total scam for the reasons everyone has already noted. I feel sorry for people who waste their money because they trust the clowns that peddle this s***.
 
Haha, nitrogen in tires is a fantastic scam. As they say, a fool and his money are soon parted. Consider that you would have to produce an absolute vacuum inside the tire before pumping in the nitrogen to remove all ambient air - and of course, the tire bead can't hold up to an absolute vacuum so unless you're running tubetype tires, you'll never get all the oxygen out.

The many and various myths of nitrogen I've heard on motorcycle forums:
  • nitrogen, having bigger atoms, will leak out more slowly (technically true, but insignificantly different - N has a Van der Waals radius of 155.pm vs. O's of 152.pm)
  • nitrogen is more stable across temperature ranges and so won't vary as much as temps drop (true, but only marginally so - and how do you top it off when it *does* drop if you can't use a regular pump?)
  • oxygen on the inside of the tire will oxidize the rubber and shorten the tire life (this is my favorite purported benefit because it would only be true if you got every last oxygen atom out of the tire)
  • nitrogen makes the tires lighter and reduces weight (I think this one is really funny - though nitrogen *is* slightly lighter than oxygen, the weight difference is tiny even before considering that ambient air is already 78% nitrogen. Factor in that the air in tires is pressurized to the same pressure regardless, and any weight difference should be negated by the higher number of nitrogen molecules present at the same pressure)

Now, there *are* reasons that airplanes and race cars fill their tires with nitrogen - most notably, the fact that nitrogen is just about completely inert. That property means a couple things - more dependable wear for the tires, and removal of the fear that it might fuel fires and explosions the same way that unknown environmental gases might. But airplanes and race cars exist at the very envelope of what we can design for, and every last bit of safety and performance can be worthwhile.

But seriously, I think fools being sure that their family van needs nitrogen in the tires probably makes them *less* safe, and here's why: how many of you have a nitrogen tank in your garage? Now, how many of you have a bicycle pump? If you notice your tires are a little low, you can grab the bicycle pump and fill them back up; but if you've just spent $5 on nitrogen and notice it's a little low, you're more likely to drive around on that less-inflated tire for a while before shelling out money to top it off, which means you're driving in a less-safe manner in the mean time. Of course, if you *do* spend money on nitrogen, but top it off with a bicycle pump when it's low, you're losing any supposed benefit you might get.

And besides, back to my original point, if they don't start with an absolute vacuum inside that tire, you're going to have oxygen in there. And there's no way you'll get a tubeless tire to seat in an absolute vacuum. So you're going to have oxygen in there.

It turns out that oftentimes when people purport to being "sick" but there's no medical explanation why, prescribing a placebo will cure the illness. I think nitrogen in tires is exactly that placebo for car enthusiasts.
 
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[*]nitrogen, having bigger atoms, will leak out more slowly (factually incorrect - nitrogen, being 7 on the periodic table and atomic weight 14.0067, is smaller than oxygen, .....

just a second dude, you've forgotten all your high school chemistry. If you're gonna get all technical you should at least be correct. As you move across a period (row) on the periodic table, radii generally gets smaller. The simple explanation is the extra proton in the nucleus pulls all the electrons closer in. So a nitrogen atom has a larger atomic radii than oxygen even though it has smaller mass. Problem is you aren't filling your tires with nitrogen atoms, you're filling it with diatomic nitrogen molecules. Now what's bigger, diatomic nitrogen or diatomic oxygen. I don't know and I don't care to search the web to prove how useless filling tires with nitrogen really is.

[*]nitrogen is more stable across temperature ranges and so won't vary as much as temps drop (true, but only marginally so...

Huh? You accept that as true? I sure don't. At the low pressures and temperatures seen in tires they would both act the exact same - as a near-ideal gas. Their pressure would vary the same with temperature.

[*]oxygen on the inside of the tire will oxidize the rubber and shorten the tire life

Ha! I love this one too. Last I checked my tires wore out on the OUTSIDE so what good does eliminating oxygen on the inside do? Maybe the gas permeates through my tires and degrades them, over say 2,000 years.


...any weight difference should be negated by the higher number of nitrogen molecules present at the same pressure)

Again, ideal gases. Air or pure nitrogen, it doesn't matter, both would contain the exact same number of molecules at a given temperature and pressure. So the only difference is in the masses, not the number of molecules. The masses vary by, what, 12%, and you're only replacing 20% of the total molecules, so you're looking at a difference of WHO F***ING CARES.

No question nitrogen is a scam, I agree with you on that at least.

On the way home today I saw a car with a for-sale sign in traffic that had the green nitro-moron valve seals and I thought it would probably be a good used car to buy, at least you know the owner could be talked into anything and always took the mechanics word for it. Surely there must have been lots of unnecessary repairs over the years but if I'm buying a used car off some guy that sounds good to me.
 
A former peer of mine went to work for a company in Sunrise, FL called Purigen98. They made units that produced 98% pure Nitrogen. In addition to the above claims it was also mentioned that the elimination of water vapor in the tire helps limit the pressure changes based on tire temps.

The unit would deliver >98% pure nitrogen with near 0% moisture. The moisture in typical compressed air was claimed to have the biggest impact on tire pressure changes with temp changes.

Most of these units go through a fill cycle to purge the tire of "old" air. They may actually fill then empty the tire two or three times with pure N2 before doing a final fill to make sure all the old air is gone.

As to why you wonder why these shops charge $20 for an N2 fill it is because these units sell for $8000 to $15000. They are sold as a revenue stream to the dealer and marketed as safety and efficiency to the consumer. If they can get five people a day to fork up $20 their payback on the equipment is 1.5 to 3 years. I've seen shops charge $40 per and dealers tack it on for as much as $150 on the dealer "**** you upcharge" sticker. Their payback may be much faster. Depending on their depreciation schedule, actual units sold and how much charged, they can realize a monthly profit of $3,000 to $10,000.

With cars requiring less maintenance and repairs shops are looking for new revenue streams to maintain the bottom line.
 
It's an image thing. A feel good feeling to have those green caps in the tires announcing to the public that 'my car's tires are nitrogen filled'. In our area it also suggests that the car owner most likely shops at costco.
 
*Setting is an AA style meeting*
Hi, my name is Tsuru and I have nitrogen in my tires...
In all seriousness, when I purchased my winter tires the shop put the nitrogen charge on the quote and I wasn't paying full attention. They only charged me $20 for all four and frankly I was more interested in the bottom line. That being said, since the shop where I got them is less than a block away from where I live I make it a monthly thing to bring my car back to them for them to check the pressure and fill if necessary. I don't have to get out of the car so it's almost like I paid $20 for drive through tire pressure checks.
Do I notice a difference with the nitrogen fill? I've noticed they need filling less often than most other tires I've owned but then again that could be that the person who installed the tires on the rims did a better job than most. The placebo effect can be quite remarkable.
 
just a second dude, you've forgotten all your high school chemistry. If you're gonna get all technical you should at least be correct. As you move across a period (row) on the periodic table, radii generally gets smaller. The simple explanation is the extra proton in the nucleus pulls all the electrons closer in. So a nitrogen atom has a larger atomic radii than oxygen even though it has smaller mass. Problem is you aren't filling your tires with nitrogen atoms, you're filling it with diatomic nitrogen molecules. Now what's bigger, diatomic nitrogen or diatomic oxygen. I don't know and I don't care to search the web to prove how useless filling tires with nitrogen really is.

Yeah, I actually corrected that 19 minutes *before* you made your post so I'm guessing it took a while to write your post - same thing happens to me a lot. Look at my edited statement on the matter. Diatomic nitrogen *is* slightly larger than diatomic oxygen - the Van der Waals radius of the atom, though not half the Van der Waals radius of the diatomic molecule, should at least scale appropriately for these two atoms, and nitrogen's radius is 2% larger. Again though, no way it makes any difference given that it's only 2% AND given that it would only be a relevant point for 20% of the gas in a normal ambient-air tire.

And yes, we agree on the important point.
 
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