MS6 AWD System

[Killer]

uh boy.

 

[wannabe]

Because the stock tires are summer only tires and not meant to be driven in snow AT ALL?

granted. however, the car behaved as a rwd car does in the snow, not a fwd. tapping the gas caused oversteer, in fwd you get understeer.

 

[Hate]

granted. however, the car behaved as a rwd car does in the snow, not a fwd. tapping the gas caused oversteer, in fwd you get understeer.

Well that I can't explain. I did slide sideways into a ditch in the snow on summers in my is300 while sitting at a stop sign with my foot on the brakes and never touching the gas, and can't explain that one either.

Looking at your pic in your sig, did so much snow get caked in your wheel wells that it rubbed against your tires too? I had to clear it out everytimes I stopped my car...

 

[psi365]

I could swear I read somewhere that they said the awd system is a Haldex which is were I got that from. Just to be clear I am not calling it that now. I looked over the sales brouchure again and it calls it an Active Torque distribution with a limited slip rear diff. In the brouchure they state that the awd system can go from 100/0 to 50/50 split.

 

[DSMConvert]

Yea the Haldex rumor I think got started b/c of the ford fusion...which is reported to use the haldex system. The ms6 version is manufactured by Toyoda.

 

[DSMConvert]

forgot to post this the other day...for those interested this is a list of cars that utilize the Haldex system(page 11)..hehe notice no ms6 listing..

http://www.odette.se/files/Jan Erik Dantoft.pdf

On another note I talked to a few Audi enthusiasts and from what they told me the Haldex system came on the higher end audis, while the "lower-grade" toyoda system was found on the base and entry audi cars...namely any audi with the engine pointing north and south had haldex, while East and West engines got toyoda...which apparently plays a role in the haldex being able to be a rwd setup while the toyoda defaults to fwd... please note I have not confirmed this info, though the people I talked to come from professional racing backgrounds ranging from mechanics to pit crew, to drivers.

 

[Gandalf]

It makes sense that for a RWD biased car you would want a longitudinal engine layout, such as all RWD cars have. Makes the transmission layout and driveshaft arrangement much easier. I dont think anyone is going to argue with you that our setup is FWD biased.

 

[psi365]

forgot to post this the other day...for those interested this is a list of cars that utilize the Haldex system(page 11)..hehe notice no ms6 listing..

http://www.odette.se/files/Jan Erik Dantoft.pdf

On another note I talked to a few Audi enthusiasts and from what they told me the Haldex system came on the higher end audis, while the "lower-grade" toyoda system was found on the base and entry audi cars...namely any audi with the engine pointing north and south had haldex, while East and West engines got toyoda...which apparently plays a role in the haldex being able to be a rwd setup while the toyoda defaults to fwd... please note I have not confirmed this info, though the people I talked to come from professional racing backgrounds ranging from mechanics to pit crew, to drivers.

Completely incorrect. Being an Audi Master Guild tech I can tell you Audi uses either a Haldex or a torson differential. So far only the TT quattro, and A3 quattro use Haldex (transverly mounted engines). All other Audi's use a torson differential to make them awd.S4's, RS4's, S6's, and S8's even have a 40/'60 split (frt/rear).

So which system is actually used on the MS6? Viscous coupling, torson differentail? How do they control the power biasd? If its controled from the rear differentail, then it is like a Haldex system. If it is controlled at the transfer case then it would be more like an Evo or Sti.

 

[Gandalf]

Completely incorrect. Being an Audi Master Guild tech I can tell you Audi uses either a Haldex or a torson differential. So far only the TT quattro, and A3 quattro use Haldex (transverly mounted engines). All other Audi's use a torson differential to make them awd.S4's, RS4's, S6's, and S8's even have a 40/'60 split (frt/rear).

So which system is actually used on the MS6? Viscous coupling, torson differentail? How do they control the power biasd? If its controled from the rear differentail, then it is like a Haldex system. If it is controlled at the transfer case then it would be more like an Evo or Sti.

Electromagnetic clutch - no diff.

 

[SilversunMSP]

I can't believe this post is still going. March 2005 issue of Sport Compact Car states that the AWD system found in the MS6 was co-produced by Mazda and a company called LUK.

 

[psi365]

Electromagnetic clutch - no diff.

Is that in the rear differentail housing or in the transfer case?

 

[DSMConvert]

um psi how am I completely incorrect? you just said yourself that some audi's use the haldex system??? I think what you meant is that I was incorrect on the other means of awd system utilized by the audi lineup. And thank you for clearing that up, like I said I was only going on "shop talk". At any rate please take a minute to read the other 4 pages of this thread and all your questions will be answered. If you're going to jump into a discussion atleast have the courtesy to read ALL the discussion before asking a ton of questions that have already been answered.

Also if you're a master tech then you'd know xfercases cannot have electromagnetic clutches....

 

[psi365]

um psi how am I completely incorrect? you just said yourself that some audi's use the haldex system??? I think what you meant is that I was incorrect on the other means of awd system utilized by the audi lineup. And thank you for clearing that up, like I said I was only going on "shop talk". At any rate please take a minute to read the other 4 pages of this thread and all your questions will be answered. If you're going to jump into a discussion atleast have the courtesy to read ALL the discussion before asking a ton of questions that have already been answered.

Also if you're a master tech then you'd know xfercases cannot have electromagnetic clutches....

You were incorrect due to saying that the high end Audi's and the Audi's that have the engines mounted longitudinally use a Haldex system. Only two lines in the US uses haldex and they are the lower line cars (A3, TT). Also only transversly mounted powertrained cars use Haldex (TT,A3). All other Audi's use a torson differential for the awd system (A4,A6,A8,Q7, S cars, RS cars). Their engines are mounted longitudinallly.

As to your second point, I was trying to get to a point that others in here keep saying that the MS6 system isn't a Haldex system. The fact that a Haldex unit is mounted in the rear differential housing (even though it has the awd system in the rear diff, it still needs to have a rear diff to change the rotation of the drive shaft (from trans to diff) to the rear axles (diff to wheels)). Working on two different models that have this system, the way you describe the awd system on the MS6 is exactly the way that a Haldex system is set up. It may not say Haldex on it, but I am positive that who evers system it is had to pay royalties to Haldex. Haldex works by applying pressure to a clutch pack in the rear diff housing that engages or disengages the rear diff assembly............sound fimiliar?

 

[automaton]

well I can't explain that karman...all I know is what the engineers and diagrams say..BUT another way you can tell is to go out to a wet parking lot and see if you can do an axis spin...if the power to the rear is over 40% you will be able to do a perfect axis spin. Axis spin - where the center of the car stays fixed and both ends rotate around it..

I know this is a little late in the discussion to comment on this post, but...

I was able to do an axis spin in the MS6. It was icy and snowy and I had the summer tires on. I turned into the donut and cut it tighter and tighter til the car was spinning on it's axis. I've never been able to do this in my Galant VR-4, and when I had my WRX I could never do it in that.

I had the wheel cranked to one side the whole time. I'm sure someone will find a way to explain it away, but by your definition, that would mean more than %10 goes to the rear wheels while the wheel is turned.

My personal observation is that much more than %10 goes to the rear wheels at all times, just by the ease with which I can step the rear-end out. Take it for what it's worth.

 

[Newf]

bla bla bla bla bla. The car is awesome in the winter, and if there is one person here that would know it, it is me. Heck, I still have 7' snow banks in my front yard, damn winter. And, i can get the rear to come around in my car WHENEVER I want,do donuts when I want, and I have good winter tires on. I simply do not believe the 10% nonsense unless it is when the wheel is fully locked to one side, in which case it might make sense.
The one thing all of you need to realize, is that when it comes to the Mazdaspeed line up, very very FEW people actually know the real technical details of it all and actually understand it. I've seen this first hand when dealing with the engineers and designers of the mp3/msp when we were going to sue them. Don't believe everything you read, don't believe the first engineer you listen to, drive the car and enjoy it.

 

[Speed6 Guy]

Well put.

 

[Gandalf]

My Autoenginuity tool should be here this week, hopefully the next autocross I can get a plot of all 4 wheels speeds, steering angle, and PCM output and see if we can get some empirical data into this discussion.

 

[DSMConvert]

good deal gandalf...so lets just keep this thread clear until then...no use arguing anymore...soon enough we'll have actual data...and from what I've seen this will be the first time actual real on the street data will be posted...

 

[Speed6 Guy]

Well put also

 

[Gandalf]

Now I just have to figure out how to convince the auto-x committee that my passenger holding the 10lb laptop is not a safety violation. . .lol.