MazdaSpeed 3 TCS/DSC COMPLETELY off.... possibly....

[ms3jake]

no diffrence in boost in any of the settings (all on, partial off, and all off) when the wheels are straight. confirmed with dashhawk i dont have the graphs anymore. psi diffrence between settings was negligable.

So whats the point of turnig it off then?(protest)(shrug)

 

[MS3Jon]

So whats the point of turnig it off then?(protest)(shrug)

As I said before when I posted the definition of TCS and DSC, you are preventing the loss of power due to electromechanical intervention. If you had TCS or DSC on then it would limit wheelspin/boost/power output if it felt a loss of tracton or a loss of control of the vehicle. Do I need to get a big purple dinosaur in here to sing a freakin' song about it?(bang)

 

[dkswim]

DSC and traction controll are two diffrent things. Dynamic Stability Controll controlls diffriential braking, throtle and amount of boost, i suspect there is also a link to the power stering, coupled with sensors including but not limmited to g-meters sterring input individule speed sensors. to assist in keeping car on all 4 wheels and heading where you want it to go. there are limiting factors it cant compensate for entering a corner at too high of a speed. on our car we can partialy turn it off it will show the 1 light on dsc off it will allow wheel spin but it starts limiting boost when you start rotating the sterring wheel and stability controll is still on you would use this id you get cought in a snow bank and trying to get out. you can also turn it completly off. which would be recomended for drag racing autocross and racetracks. when i do spirited drives in the mountins i leave on. you never know when a deer is going to hop out of thin air or rocks in the middle of the road or a streem of water flowing across the road. DSC keeps our car fairly nuturel handaling wise with off you will notice back end likes to move around a little.

in sure this is highly fragmented and misspelled ill try and cleen up later.
more to come im at work and cant devot all my time here.

 

[MS3Jon]

TCS...

Electronic stability control (SC) systems detect loss in traction and react to regain grip using the braking and engine management systems. Situations where the systems will come into action include understeer, oversteer, and spinning wheels.

Most new vehicles are now fitted with some kind of stability control system. There are a host of acronyms for this technology which varies according to car manufacturer…

Electronic Traction control (ETC/ TCS)
Dynamic Stability Control (DSC)
Electronic Stability Programme (ESP)
Porsche Stability Management (PSM)
Etc

Don't be fooled into thinking each of these systems are unique - they all function in very similar ways (and are usually all made by the same manufacturer).

How do stability control systems work?

Sensors

In order for the car to detect loss of traction it needs some sensors. These come in various different forms and determine how the car is behaving, and what the driver is trying to do. Yaw sensors, gyros, wheel-speed detectors and accelerometers are the most common sensors found in SC systems. In addition, information ranging from steering and pedal position, engine speed and gear selection is used to determine driver inputs.

How is this information used?


When the SC system determines that loss of traction is occurring, it acts using the braking and engine management controls (and in some cars even the steering system) to put the car back on track. The system reacts according to a set of preset criteria depending on the nature of the loss of traction, which can include spinning wheels or slides.

Spinning wheels


Traction control is used to reduce drive loss through spinning wheels. This can occur when driving on slippery surfaces, or when accelerating hard (usually in first gear from a stand still). Traction control reacts by applying the brakes to the spinning wheel and this forces the drive to be diverted to the wheel(s) with the best grip. Traction control usually only operates below a certain speed.

Sliding


There are two different types of slide – understeer and oversteer. SC systems react to these situations by applying the brakes to individual wheels, and reduce engine torque when appropriate to keep the car on line. During an understeer situation, torque is reduced and the resulting forwards weight transfer is usually enough to regain control, if this is not sufficient to bring the vehicle back in line, individual rear brakes will be applied. When oversteer is occurring, brake force is applied to one of the front wheels, which acts as pivot to bring the car back on line. In general, the brakes are only applied to the wheels which are likely to have the most grip.

How does the system apply the brakes?


Almost every vehicle now has ABS fitted as standard. This life-saving system allows you to continue to steer while braking by regulating the brake pressure and preventing wheel-lock. The system uses a hydraulic motor to generate brake pressure, and this same motor is used by the SC systems to apply braking force to individual wheels where possible, and valves in the ABS unit regulate the pressure.

Disadvantages of SC systems

As discussed above, SC systems use both the brakes and engine management controls to reduce wheelspin or slides. Great on the road, but when you're on a track the last thing you need is the car putting on the brakes! Most performance cars have an option to disable (or significantly reduce) the SC systems via a button on the dash. Experiment by turning off the control and see how the car behaves. If you have got into the bad habit of allowing the SC systems to sort you out round corners, you may find yourself spinning in the first bend, so be careful and build up speed gradually as your confidence improves.

DSC...

ESC compares the driver's intended direction (by measuring steering angle) to the vehicle's actual direction (by measuring lateral acceleration, vehicle rotation (yaw) and individual wheel speeds). If the vehicle is not going where the driver is steering, ESC then brakes individual front or rear wheels and/or reduces excess engine power as needed to help correct understeer (plowing) or oversteer (fishtailing).

ESC incorporates yaw rate control into anti-lock brakes. Yaw is rotation around the vertical axis; i.e. spinning left or right. Anti-lock brakes enable ESC to brake individual wheels. ESC may also incorporate traction control, which senses drive-wheel slip under acceleration and individually brakes the slipping wheel or wheels and/or reduces excess engine power until control is regained.

ESC cannot override a car's physical limits or increase traction. If a driver pushes the vehicle's traction beyond its limits, ESC cannot prevent a crash. It is a tool to help the driver maintain control using available traction.


[edit] Components and Design
The ESC-system uses several sensors to determine what the driver wants (input). Other sensors indicate the actual state of the vehicle (response). The control-algorithm compares driver input to vehicle response (25 times per second) and decides, when necessary, to apply brakes and/or reduce throttle.

The sensors used for ESC have to send data at all times in order to detect possible defects as soon as possible. They have to be resistant to possible forms of interference (rain, holes in the road, etc.). The most important sensors are:

Steering wheel angle sensor : determines the driver's intended rotation; i.e. where the driver wants to steer. This kind of sensor is often based on AMR-elements.
Yaw rate sensor : measures the slip angle of the car; i.e how much the car is actually turning. The data from the yaw sensor is compared with the data from the steering wheel angle sensor to determine regulating action.
Lateral acceleration sensor : often based on the Hall effect. Measures the lateral acceleration of the vehicle.
Wheel speed sensor : measures the wheel speed.
ESC uses a hydraulic modulator to assure that each wheel receives the correct brake force. A similar modulator is used in ABS. ABS needs to reduce pressure during braking, only. ESC additionally needs to increase pressure in certain situations.

The heart of the ESC-system is the Electronic Control Unit (ECU). The various control techniques are embedded in it. Often, the same ECU is used for diverse systems at the same time (ABS, Traction control, climate control, etc.). The input signals are sent through the input-circuit to the digital controller. The desired vehicle state is determined based upon the steering wheel angle, its gradient and the wheel speed. Simultaneously, the yaw sensor measures the actual state. The controller computes the needed brake or acceleration force for each wheel and directs via the driver circuits the valves of the hydraulic modulator. Via a CAN-interface the ECU is connected with other systems (ABS, etc.) in order to avoid giving contradictory commands.

Most ESC systems use an indicator light on the dash to tell the driver when the system is active (i.e. has detected and corrected skidding).

Many ESC systems have an "off" switch so the driver can disable ESC, for example, when stuck in mud or snow. However, ESC defaults to "On" when the ignition is re-started.

Not quite sure how much easier I can break it down.

 

[dkswim]

dam you jon.... you said what i was going to say except you added more.

 

[Young Roids]

subing

 

[Hapa88]

Good Lord, what it so difficult to understand about all this?! If you hit the button after you start the car, it turns off DSC but TCS stays on. If you hold the button while starting the car it turns off both TCS and DSC. It's that simple.

You're actually wrong. There is NO TRICK! If you hit the button at anytime, you turn off BOTH DSC and TCS! It says so in the owners manual (page 5-23 of the 2008 Mazda 3 owners manual)!

READ THE OWNERS MANUAL!

"Note: To Turn off the TCS, press the DSC OFF switch (page 5-25)"

"DSC OFF Switch
To turn off the TCS/DSC, press and hold the DSC OFF switch until the DSC OFF indicator light illuminates. Press the switch again to turn the TCS/DSC back on. The DSC OFF indicator light will go out.

NOTE
When DSC is on and you attempt to free the vehicle when it is stuck, or drive it out of freshly fallen snow, the TCS (part of the DSC system) will activate. Depressing the accelerator will not increase engine power and freeing the vehicle may be difficult. When this happens, turn off the TCS/DSC. If the TCS/DSC is off when the engine is turned off, it automatically activates when the ignition switch is turned on. Leaving the TCS/DSC on will provide the best stability."

Try it! Hit the button turning off DSC! Drop the clutch and burn out!!!

THERE IS NO TRICK!!! To turn TCS/DSC completely off all you have to do is hit the button!!!

 

[MS3Jon]

Okay. Go do what it says in the manual and see what happens. Or you can just save the gas, and I'll explain it to you again.

I agree with you that the manual says it will initially turn off both systems, key word "initially". However, once the system senses a complete loss in traction (not control) of the front wheels, the TCS will kick back in and do it's job. You can see the result of this by doing what you, and the manual, said then agressively accelerating. Once you do that you will see the flashing sign on the dash and a change in engine sound and RPM, indicating that the TCS system has reactivated because of the complete loss of traction, and taken back over. If you would have read the complete description of the system, instead of yelling at me and telling me to read the manual, you would have seen that.
So next time you do a little homework and try to tell someone they are wrong, at least read the whole thing.

If the TCS or DSC is
operating, the indicator light flashes.
In addition to the indicator light flashing, a slight lugging sound will come from the engine. This indicates that the TCS is operating properly. On slippery surfaces, such as fresh snow, it will be impossible to achieve high rpm when the TCS is on.

I'm not trying to sound like a dick, I'm just trying to make sure that people are getting the FULL and proper information.

 

[Hapa88]

Okay. Go do what it says in the manual and see what happens. Or you can just save the gas, and I'll explain it to you again.

I agree with you that the manual says it will initially turn off both systems, key word "initially". However, once the system senses a complete loss in traction (not control) of the front wheels, the TCS will kick back in and do it's job. You can see the result of this by doing what you, and the manual, said then agressively accelerating. Once you do that you will see the flashing sign on the dash and a change in engine sound and RPM, indicating that the TCS system has reactivated because of the complete loss of traction, and taken back over. If you would have read the complete description of the system, instead of yelling at me and telling me to read the manual, you would have seen that.
So next time you do a little homework and try to tell someone they are wrong, at least read the whole thing.



I'm not trying to sound like a dick, I'm just trying to make sure that people are getting the FULL and proper information.

We must be talking about 2 different things here because you statements sound incorrect for the topic given.

What YOU describe is what happens when the TCS & DSC systems are activated and running and the car senses a loss in traction. This happens by default as soon as you turn on your car (no buttons pushed). There will be no lights illuminated on the dash.

If you remember, the title of this thread "MazdaSpeed 3 TCS/DSC COMPLETELY off....". We're not talking about it being ON here (we want the system OFF or deactivated).


Let me reiterate what I am saying:
1) If you want to turn both TCS and DSC COMPLETELY OFF, all you have to do is hit the button on the dash that says DSC OFF at anytime when the car is running.
2) By hitting this button you will see a DSC OFF illuminated on the dash (the traction control light/skid light will NOT be illuminated).
3) This action should be taken anytime you want to do a burnout to impress your friends, get your car DYNOed or free yourself from the SNOW as it states in the manual.
4) With DSC OFF you will able to spin your tires freely, and buronout as long as you want. The TCS light (skid light) will NEVER illuminate in this case, even if the tires are spinning (the only light illuminated is DSC OFF).
5) The TCS system will NEVER reactivate itself unless you hit the DSC OFF button one more time (which will cause the DSC OFF light to no longer illuminate) OR if you turn OFF your car and restart it.
6) The trick described in the first post doesn't do anything more than what the DSC OFF button already does. All you are doing is making another light illuminate on your dash. Both systems will be disabled in either case.

This quote you just stated:

If the TCS or DSC is
operating, the indicator light flashes.
In addition to the indicator light flashing, a slight lugging sound will come from the engine. This indicates that the TCS is operating properly. On slippery surfaces, such as fresh snow, it will be impossible to achieve high rpm when the TCS is on.

Talks about the TCS system when it is ON/Enabled/Active/Activated.

What I am talking about is when the system is OFF/Disabled/Inactive/Deactivated.

I'm not trying to sound like a dick either, I'm just trying to make sure that people are getting the FULL and proper information.

 

[dkswim]

we are talking about diffrent levels of deactivation of the stability system

 

[Hapa88]

we are talking about diffrent levels of deactivation of the stability system

There's only 2 levels (despite what people want to believe here - at least on the 2008 models):

1) All ON (Default when you turn on the car - DSC/TCS are enabled)
2) All OFF (When you press the DSC OFF - DSC/TCS are disabled)

 

[MS3Jon]

If you do it as you said, yes, according to the book it will deactivate both the TCS and the DSC. Just like Mazda did with the CX-7, you can deactivate the system, but it will automatically reactivate itself under certain conditions. I know this because I also own an 07 CX-7 GT. Here's how you can tell that the system is not fully deactivated...
1. Start your car normally.
2. Press the "DSC OFF" switch, you will see only the "DSC OFF" light illuminate on the dash, but the TCS light will remain out.
3. Launch the car hard, ensuring you break traction on the front wheels and you will see the TCS light (the swerving car) flashing. Read that again FLASHING!!! The ECU has just AUTOMATICALLY REACTIVATED the TCS system. The reason Mazda did this is beacuse they know there are young, uneducated ******* idiots out there who would kill themselves and/or others by deactivating both safety systems and driving like a retard.

Now, if you do the other method, you will notice that not only the DSC OFF light is on, but the TSC light will STAY LIT. That light staying lit lets you know that both systems have been FULLY deactivated, and CAN NOT automatically reactivate themselves.
This saves Mazda from any law suits because some retard wrecks his car being stupid, and doesn't know how to handle a car with a little power. Because this method is "FOR MAINTENANCE TESTING ONLY AND IS NOT OUTLINED IN THE OWNERS MANUAL".

 

[Hapa88]

If you do it as you said, yes, according to the book it will deactivate both the TCS and the DSC. Just like Mazda did with the CX-7, you can deactivate the system, but it will automatically reactivate itself under certain conditions. I know this because I also own an 07 CX-7 GT. Here's how you can tell that the system is not fully deactivated...
1. Start your car normally.
2. Press the "DSC OFF" switch, you will see only the "DSC OFF" light illuminate on the dash, but the TCS light will remain out.
3. Launch the car hard, ensuring you break traction on the front wheels and you will see the TCS light (the swerving car) flashing. Read that again FLASHING!!! The ECU has just AUTOMATICALLY REACTIVATED the TCS system. The reason Mazda did this is beacuse they know there are young, uneducated ******* idiots out there who would kill themselves and/or others by deactivating both safety systems and driving like a retard.

Now, if you do the other method, you will notice that not only the DSC OFF light is on, but the TSC light will STAY LIT. That light staying lit lets you know that both systems have been FULLY deactivated, and CAN NOT automatically reactivate themselves.
This saves Mazda from any law suits because some retard wrecks his car being stupid, and doesn't know how to handle a car with a little power. Because this method is "FOR MAINTENANCE TESTING ONLY AND IS NOT OUTLINED IN THE OWNERS MANUAL".

What you said doesn't apply to the MS3, at least not the 2008 models. The programming is probably different.

I just tested this a few hours ago. Turn off DSC after turning the car on. Did a burnout going onto the freeway, going through all of 1st and part of 2nd. Spinning tires like crazy. NO FLASHING LIGHTS! NONE!!!!. (alright)

Continued driving and got off the freeway. Went back on the freeway (same session, no restart of the car, never touching the DSC OFF button) and did the same thing. Guess what? NO FLASHING LIGHTS!! NO TCS FLASHING, nothing but the DSC OFF light illuminated and some burning rubber smells!

I encourage you to video yourself testing this with the MS3 and you will find out, that yes, I am infact correct.

Here's someone who's already done it (note, no blinking TCS light):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=S-YrWPx_OXY

You can also prove this to yourself by putting your car on a DYNO!!! It's the same thing, the rear tires are stopped, the front tires are spinning!

This probably doesn't apply to the CX-7 because it's a different program! And some of them are AWD! I thought we were in the MS3 forum here. . .

 

[MS3Jon]

Okay. I'm done arguing with this guy. Sometimes ignorance can't be overcome. And it's usually from the same people that make rediculous claims that make no sense. Like, testing Traction Control on a dyno... seriously? Are you that dense?
And yes, some CX-7's are AWD, like the one I own. Are you saying they won't break traction cause they have AWD? And I know that the CX-7 and the MS3 have different programming. I was simply stating that Mazda has implimented safety controls that will automatically reactivate themselves to prevent dip-s**** from killing themselves.
Sense you seem to be an expert on the TCS/DSC system, how about you explain the different settings and why the TCS light stays illuminated in the second method. Maybe I'll go test them on a DYNO.

Believe what you want, I'll stick whith what I know.

 

[4thStroke]

This is weird. I dont see how its so hard to unserstand that DSC is either off, or on, at the press of a button. I noticed nothing different when I did the startup method vs. hitting the button while in motion.

When I went down to the track, all I did was pressed the DCS off button. With only "DSC Off" illuminated, I had no interference at all while spinning the tires, whether it was in the water box or my launch.

So, with real world testing, that is how the car reacted with DSC off. I turned it off, and thats exactly what it did.

TCS is just one of the stability programs in the whole DSC system. With DSC off, why would traction control still take over if the tires are spinning? After all, it was turned off.

MS3Jon, have you tested the methods? I can just about promise you if you only turn off DCS and dump the clutch from a stand still, the tires will go up in smoke and TCS will not take over. I say "just about" because it sounds like your car may not haven been built like ours by the way you are telling us that with DSC off, TCS will still take over if the tires spin.

The reason Mazda did this is beacuse they know there are young, uneducated ******* idiots out there who would kill themselves and/or others by deactivating both safety systems and driving like a retard.

So... for instance. I know with Mustangs, you turn off traction control, and you can blow the tires off all day long. Why did Ford not protect themselves the same as Mazda has? You can permanatly turn off TC with a programmer, how many times has Diablosport been sued for a some young punk trashing his car because Diablosport allowed him to do this and his own ignorance almost killed him? When you get into a car and deactivate a safely device, YOU are taking the risk, not Ford and Mazda. I would love to see somebody try sue Mazda for turning off DSC and wrecking the car, it would prove entertaining humor for all of us. It would be like someone deactivating the airbag and suing the car maker for allowing him to do that and it didnt deploy when they wrecked.

Im with Hapa on this one.

Mine is an 07.

 

[dkswim]

im telling you its the level of stability controll being off.

 

[Hapa88]

Okay. I'm done arguing with this guy. Sometimes ignorance can't be overcome. .

Try it yourself. Do what I said on your MS3. You won't see any lights. Look at the video! WATCH IT!! The second half! Seriously! Here it is again.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=S-YrWPx_OXY
What other evidence do you need? I haven't seen any evidence of you posting anything proof of your "re-engagement" theory. It's ok, you can admit it. . . you're the ignorant one, not me.

And it's usually from the same people that make rediculous claims that make no sense. Like, testing Traction Control on a dyno... seriously? Are you that dense?

It's easy to test if the TCS system is working on a DYNO. Why? Because it the perfect case where the rear tires are fixed and the front tires are moving. The TCS system senses loss in traction by comparing the speeds of the front set of tires verses the rear set of tires. If they are different it cuts the power so that the front tires match the speed of the rears.
If what YOU say is correct, it would be impossible to get a full and accurate DYNO run because the TCS system would intervene and mess up your run. How many people already have DYNO runs on MS3s? Check the forums. .. ask them how they did it. I bet all they did was hit "DSC OFF" to get a nice clean run.

And yes, some CX-7's are AWD, like the one I own. Are you saying they won't break traction cause they have AWD? And I know that the CX-7 and the MS3 have different programming. I was simply stating that Mazda has implimented safety controls that will automatically reactivate themselves to prevent dip-s**** from killing themselves.

Yes, some cars have systems that re-engage themselves. I'm seen it on some rental cars. The MS3 does not. Maybe the CX-7 does, but the MS3 doesn't.
The CX-7 AWD probably re-engages itself because its AWD! How can the tires be at different speeds if the drivetrain is forcing them to match speeds?

Sense you seem to be an expert on the TCS/DSC system, how about you explain the different settings and why the TCS light stays illuminated in the second method. Maybe I'll go test them on a DYNO.

Believe what you want, I'll stick whith what I know.

I stated in my one of my other posts about this. All you (or the original poster) did was find a trick to illuminate the other light. I'm sorry, it's no magical super TCS/DSC disable mode. . .it's not. You just found a way to make your dash light up like a Christmas tree. Congratulations!

im telling you its the level of stability controll being off.

Back to what I said before.
There's only 2 levels (despite what people want to believe here - at least on the 2008 models):

1) All ON (Default when you turn on the car - DSC/TCS are enabled)
2) All OFF (When you press the DSC OFF - DSC/TCS are disabled)

DSC is either ALL ON or ALL OFF, no in-between modes

 

[Hapa88]

Here's another video proving my point (WOW no TCS light! All I hear is spinning tires! WooHoo!):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHJ_XkX-Z0o

Oh, and another one:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=MEEJRQ37USc

 

[jp4130]

There is no trick, the car does everything the same way with both lights on or just one, Hapa88 is right.

 

[kneedragger241]

i bet it was flashing, LETTING YOU KNOW your breaking traction.

Priceless! I guess the engineers at Mazda think I'm too stupid to realize I'm spinning my wheels and I need a flashing light to alert me... so I can back off the accelerator at the same time as the ECU and come to a screeching halt LOL!

I drive much better without the electronic back seat driver "helping" me.
Haven't had traction control on any of my race cars or bikes and I've done just fine without it.