Mazda's 15-Year Quest For Hydrogen Vehicles

[Antoine]

Mazda's 15-year quest for hydrogen vehicles

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The Hydrogen Economy. How many times have we heard that this futuristic nirvana is coming? And why is it always 15-20 years from today? It'll be great when the HE finally gets here and provides clean energy to everyone, but who knows when (or how) the serious technological hurdles will be overcome. While we wait (some more), here's a look at how Mazda spent the past 15 years gearing up for hydrogen vehicles.

Mazda introduced their first hydrogen prototype in 1991 at the Tokyo Motor Show. This vehicle, called the HR-X, was powered by a hydrogen-powered rotary engine. Mazda is still working on putting rotary engines into cars, but is also working, like other automakers, on hydrogen fuel cells. The company's latest hydrogen prototype, the RX-8 Hydrogen RE concept car, was presented at the 2003 Tokyo Motor Show. The RX-8 Hydrogen RE is currently being leased (and is not affected by the recent RX-8 recall) to companies and local governments in Japan for 420,000 yen a month (about 3,600 US$ or 2,860 Euros). Mazda, like Ford, believes using hydrogen internal combustion engines are the right next step before we get to hydrogen fuel cells. Mazda says it considers hydrogen well-suited for rotary engines, and the company's long experience with rotary engines means it will lead the pack in introducing hydrogen engines to the market.

[Source: Fullboost.com]

 

[tschanrm]

It's great that more companies are coming out with hyrdrogen based vehicles (BMW also announced one as well), but right now the process to make hydrogen is completely inefficient. For one unit of hydrogen energy you need to provide more than one unit of some other energy (coal, petrol, etc.), so nobody is saving the environment by using hydrogen, at least, not yet......

 

[Dalton]

It's great that more companies are coming out with hyrdrogen based vehicles (BMW also announced one as well), but right now the process to make hydrogen is completely inefficient. For one unit of hydrogen energy you need to provide more than one unit of some other energy (coal, petrol, etc.), so nobody is saving the environment by using hydrogen, at least, not yet......

Where did you learn something like that?
Its complete :bs:

Hydrogen is an energy carrier, not an energy source. Electrolysis, which requires electricity, is used to extract hydrogen from water. As of 2004, 50% of the electricity produced in the United States comes from coal, 20% comes from nuclear, 18% from natural gas, 7% from hydroelectricity, 3% from petroleum and the remaining 3% mostly coming from geothermal, solar and biomass. When hydrogen is produced through electrolysis, the energy comes from these sources. Though the fuel cell itself will only emit heat and water as waste, pollution is produced to make the hydrogen that it runs on. Hydrogen production is only as clean as the energy sources used to produce it.

 

[Speed3.5]

You live in estonia now or used to , cuz as far as europe goes about this matter they don't care too much

those "%" you've stated don't make sense my friend to this matter, the case is that those cars require more $$ to purchase instead of buying a civic which doesn't spend much gas

Where did you learn something like that?
Its complete :bs:

Hydrogen is an energy carrier, not an energy source. Electrolysis, which requires electricity, is used to extract hydrogen from water. As of 2004, 50% of the electricity produced in the United States comes from coal, 20% comes from nuclear, 18% from natural gas, 7% from hydroelectricity, 3% from petroleum and the remaining 3% mostly coming from geothermal, solar and biomass. When hydrogen is produced through electrolysis, the energy comes from these sources. Though the fuel cell itself will only emit heat and water as waste, pollution is produced to make the hydrogen that it runs on. Hydrogen production is only as clean as the energy sources used to produce it.

 

[CRZbrussian]

You live in estonia now or used to , cuz as far as europe goes about this matter they don't care too much

those "%" you've stated don't make sense my friend to this matter, the case is that those cars require more $$ to purchase instead of buying a civic which doesn't spend much gas

got beef w/ Estonia??..i cut you(dark) and for the not caring fact, have you been over there and herd from the people themselves that they not care for it?

 

[Dalton]

You live in estonia now or used to , cuz as far as europe goes about this matter they don't care too much

those "%" you've stated don't make sense my friend to this matter, the case is that those cars require more $$ to purchase instead of buying a civic which doesn't spend much gas

Cmon "Europe not careing"

How come - where did you learn that?
Gas is so heavily taxed here that you cannot afford to not care! (retail would be like $6-7 a gallon)
Mazda or any other car company for that matter will not sell their SUV-s here when they dont offer a diesel engine. And thats a fact.
With diesel you will get like 30/36 MPG.

 

[DiS]

Cmon "Europe not careing"

How come - where did you learn that?
Gas is so heavily taxed here that you cannot afford to not care! (retail would be like $6-7 a gallon)
Mazda or any other car company for that matter will not sell their SUV-s here when they dont offer a diesel engine. And thats a fact.
With diesel you will get like 30/36 MPG.

I second that!

I used to live in Russia...and oh s*** gas prices back then were expensive but now its ****** incredible comparing to USA prices.

 

[en3rgy]

It's great that more companies are coming out with hyrdrogen based vehicles (BMW also announced one as well), but right now the process to make hydrogen is completely inefficient. For one unit of hydrogen energy you need to provide more than one unit of some other energy (coal, petrol, etc.), so nobody is saving the environment by using hydrogen, at least, not yet......

Also there is no infrastructure in place for Hydrogen filling stations. Hydrogen is a n idea whos time was the late 1980's. Now is the time for electric cars as battery capacities are getting really large (thanks to laptops). Add to that a simple a/c outlet is all you'd need to fill 'er up! Maybe add some solar panels on the hood and roof too.

 

[DeadGeneration]

I just got the BMW magazine featuring the new hydrogen vehicle. It is a V-12 with 260 horsepower. It has a range of 125 miles using hydrogen and 300 miles using gasoline. Here is the thing though... Wouldn't hydrogen cars cause more rain? I read that the gas would never make it up that far and that it would condense before it reaches clouds. Well... if there is enough hydrogen gas being released into the air and condensing THAT forms clouds. There is no height requirement for clouds. Fog is condensed air that is just above the surface of the earth. So if condensed hydrogen does not make it high enough for clouds then they will just make their own clouds at whatever height they condense at.

Also, let's say no clouds are formed. Wouldn't it be steamy enough to increase humidity in already warm parts of the earth? Also, it would be similar to cars that start up on a cold morning or run in cold environments, that condensed gas would be more numerous with hydrogen cars and the visibility on the roadways would be bad. What about cold environments? The hydrogen would come off and turn to water and ice faster. Increasing the danger on the road. What if your exhaust was to freeze up with a big chunk of ice?

All of these are based on a massive scale. They can check the last question I had about freezing exhaust pipes by testing a single hydrogen car and figuring out the exhaust temperature would be too high to allow that, or maybe it would be discovered as a problem. All the others are based on cars running on hydrogen on a massive scale.

 

[Ehkart]

I just got the BMW magazine featuring the new hydrogen vehicle. It is a V-12 with 260 horsepower. It has a range of 125 miles using hydrogen and 300 miles using gasoline. Here is the thing though... Wouldn't hydrogen cars cause more rain? I read that the gas would never make it up that far and that it would condense before it reaches clouds. Well... if there is enough hydrogen gas being released into the air and condensing THAT forms clouds. There is no height requirement for clouds. Fog is condensed air that is just above the surface of the earth. So if condensed hydrogen does not make it high enough for clouds then they will just make their own clouds at whatever height they condense at.

Think of LA at sunset and dawn; that nasty smog cloud that covers the city, would it being water instead be all that bad?

Also, let's say no clouds are formed. Wouldn't it be steamy enough to increase humidity in already warm parts of the earth? Also, it would be similar to cars that start up on a cold morning or run in cold environments, that condensed gas would be more numerous with hydrogen cars and the visibility on the roadways would be bad.

I could see the industry possibly developing newer and better headlights.

What about cold environments? The hydrogen would come off and turn to water and ice faster. Increasing the danger on the road.

Better ice tires and snow tires? Maybe possible slowing of global warming due to the fact that all that water should help cool everything?

What if your exhaust was to freeze up with a big chunk of ice?

All of these are based on a massive scale. They can check the last question I had about freezing exhaust pipes by testing a single hydrogen car and figuring out the exhaust temperature would be too high to allow that, or maybe it would be discovered as a problem.

I think they've worked that bug out, or at least I h ope they did.

All the others are based on cars running on hydrogen on a massive scale.

 

[camrycev6]

Where did you learn something like that?
Its complete :bs:

Hydrogen is an energy carrier, not an energy source. Electrolysis, which requires electricity, is used to extract hydrogen from water. As of 2004, 50% of the electricity produced in the United States comes from coal, 20% comes from nuclear, 18% from natural gas, 7% from hydroelectricity, 3% from petroleum and the remaining 3% mostly coming from geothermal, solar and biomass. When hydrogen is produced through electrolysis, the energy comes from these sources. Though the fuel cell itself will only emit heat and water as waste, pollution is produced to make the hydrogen that it runs on. Hydrogen production is only as clean as the energy sources used to produce it.

Which is why we need more nuclear plants! They are far cleaner than any other non-environmental generated souce. (Wind, geothermal, etc.) They take up far less space too. With the advancements in fuel types, we can make a lot more electricity a lot cheaper and safer. The sad truth is that people have an irrational fear of nuclear plants because they don't understand them very well. Right now, nuclear based energy is the best for us and the environment. Solar is a nice option too....but unless we devote large areas to gather sunlight, it isn't very practical on a large scale. (Not to mention storing the energy and transporting it is a real pain!) Just ask Edison about his failed attempts to get DC to win over AC....

Now regarding some of the other concerns...

Liquid hydrogen has about 2.6 times of the total energy (by mass) as gasoline, however, it is much less dense - and therefore lighter, even as a liquid. So by volume, we need 4 times as much. So from a weight standpoint, we would need a much bigger tank to hold the large volume, but the hydrogen would weigh much less than the gasoline, so they just about even out.

As far as the water production from the burning of the hydrogen, I don't think we have to worry about water vapor problems freezing lines, damaging the air, or causing unsafe conditions. Water vapor is in the air at all times in most places, and certainly at extreme levels every time it rains. Considering the overall volume of water vapor in our atmosphere (about 1%), compared to the tiny amount of Carbon Dioxide, (about .038%) these cars would likely have little impact. Let's do some math:

If average gas tank holds 15 gallons of gas, you would need 60 gallons of Hydrogen for the same amount of energy. (4 x 15) 60 gallons of Hydrogen weighs 34 pounds. (Density cal.) When you "burn" Hydrogen, you need one molecule of oxygen per every 2 of Hydrogen. Oxygen weighs 16 times that of hydrogen, so when burn 34 pounds of Hydrogen you need 272 pounds of oxygen. (Remember... 17 x 16, because you need 2 molecules of H to every 1 of oxygen.) So at the end of a "tank" you will have made 306 pounds of water. A gallon of water is approximately 8 pounds, so you made about 38 gallons of water vapor. This is not a lot considering you spread it over what 200 miles? 250? Yes...I know we are talking about thousands of cars doing this, but please keep in mind that there is normally 26 times more water vapor in our atmosphere than CO2. The Earth can handle it a lot longer...and a lot easier than all the CO2.

 

[DeadGeneration]

Yea, the nuclear thing is kinda funny cuz I think recently I still heard nuclear power plants were being shut down and spoken about like that was good news. lol

Any way yea I dunno I just think with ever action there is a reaction - so changing weather would have to be one of them with the introduction of more water in the air. We are artifically evaporating more. Just like burning gasoline is releasing excess carbon. I just think that potentially if hydrogen technology causes some kinda massive hurricane that whipped us out the global warming guys would be like "hmmmm didn't see that one coming" lol I just would like to see some kinda research or discussion on this. I don't know any thing about it, but I still have the ability to raise questions.

 

[ProtoType5]

BioDiesel will be the next major step towards alternative fuel...It is by far the easiest, most abundant, and cleanest step we can take.

Lotus already developed a factory biodeisel Elise or Exige...I dont' know the difference, that puts down 260hp...

And the production of water by Hydrogen Fuel cells is not gonna change global weather nearly as dramatically, if at all...Consider the amount of water evaporating in the deserts of Southern Cali, as we pump the Rio Grande dry to irrigate our fields...That is major water consumption and evaporation.

 

[avarela86]

I wanna ask the stupid question...I don't understand the concept too well. But I read up about this a while ago, doesn't liquid Hydrogen require an extremely cold environment to remain in a liquid form? What about the dangers of having a leak etc. Just a simple question i'm sure since it appears most of you guys seem like you know what you are talking about.

 

[DeadGeneration]

The tank is lined with aluminum foil, that's all I know.

 

[DeadGeneration]

And about Diesel, instead of killing the birds we can poison the fish lol I hate the sound and smell of diesel and will gladly form a vigilante resistance to them by smashing windows, etc. of the ones I see. "Is the trash truck outside?" "no my wife just pulled in the driveway coming home from the grocery store."

 

[ProtoType5]

I wanna ask the stupid question...I don't understand the concept too well. But I read up about this a while ago, doesn't liquid Hydrogen require an extremely cold environment to remain in a liquid form? What about the dangers of having a leak etc. Just a simple question i'm sure since it appears most of you guys seem like you know what you are talking about.

The tanks are similair to race car tank...Nearly indestructible...and yes it is in liquid form and very condensed.

Also, there already is an extremely vast distribution system for Hydrogen...It is used in nearly all manufacturing/material processes. There is just no consumer level distribution. It would be very similair to Propane tanks/stations.

 

[ProtoType5]

It's BioDiesel...Not Petroleum deisel...HUGE DIFFERENCE..If you don't know the difference...do some research.

 

[camrycev6]

I wanna ask the stupid question...I don't understand the concept too well. But I read up about this a while ago, doesn't liquid Hydrogen require an extremely cold environment to remain in a liquid form? What about the dangers of having a leak etc. Just a simple question i'm sure since it appears most of you guys seem like you know what you are talking about.

Not necessarily. Here comes in some good old basic gas laws (physics). You have two ways to turn a gas into a liquid. You can either get it really cold (what you are thinking) or increase the pressure -- or a combination of the two. The tank would not need to be very cold in order to change it into a liquid. We do it all the time with propane tanks and gas grills!

 

[rishi CX-7]

Is hydrogen gas cars really going to help the atmosphere, let alone the economy? I highly doubt it.. it takes just as much coal burning as a car needs to burn gas. In other words, it is spoiling the atmosphere just as much as our cars do! And on top of that, Hydrogen is extremly unstable! Why should engineers waste their time here when they could be expirementing further on hyrbid engines and engines that can use vegetable oil?