WookieOnRitalin said:
But Petey, you stack Honda problems next to other car companies and its not the same if you ask me.
Actually, in the grand scheme of things, I dislike Honda because they are so wound up trying to be just like Toyota.. Toyota irritates me becuase they are so wrapped up in trying to trump Honda. The innovations that Honda puts forth to try and be different than Toyota are actually feigned sucky rush jobs based on a rumour about something Toyota was making and releasing a year later. And I didn't really like the effects of some of Toyota's innovations to begin with...
Examples:
Hybrids: Toyota beat Honda's butt on this one. Toyota was making the prius, it was a nice little compact that was a success in Japan and was slowly planning to introduce it to the American market. Honda basically slapped together the Insight and rushed it here so they could get the title of "first hybrid in the states".
The Prius was a ergonomic miracle with a revolutionary and well tested system that used a CVT that actually ended up being simpler than your run-of-the-mill automatics incorporating the electric motor strong enough to power the car.
The insight was a cramped uncomfortable bare-bones rattle trap that cost too much. Yes, you could get 70 MPG, but you were doing it with a 3-cylinder and an electric booster. and for $20K.. you might as well just retrofit a Suzuki swift. The things also sucked on toast. If I saw an insight in the parking lot there was a 50/50 chance it was going to leave under it's own power. Honda later dropped an underengineered 4-cylinder with an electric booster into the civic and charged way too much for it. I mean, the HCH engine doesn't even have VTEC... the thing Honda has been using to aggrandize their technology since the 80's... Soon they will be releasing an Accord hybrid... probably because they heard Toyota was planning on a Camry hybrid
The second gen Prius has since outsold insights and HCH's combined... because Toyota was concentrating on making a better hybrid that people would like more... not wound up in trying to out-do the other company. Other companies have also asked Toyota to help with their hybrid designs. Honda dropped the ball on this one, a big strike against their "we're so reliable, we never rush things, our engines are so good" marketing.
Luxury lines
Sometime in the early nineties, Toyota begat Lexus, and Honda begat Acura. Up until about 2000, you were paying a 30% markup for what was basically a prestige thing and a slightly better trim/engine.
Now, The luxery lines are basically eating all the nifty technology and R&D for both companies. The new engines go into a lexus/acura first and you won't see them in a Toyota/Honda until another new engine is developed. Toyota and Honda aren't allowed to make nifty cars for the lower brand without threatening higher brand Lexus and Acura sales "sorry this civic Si can't have any reasonable horsepower because people would buy it instead of the RSX which has a higher profit margin". "sorry, if we released the IS300 as an altezza, people would buy it instead of the IS300, which has a higher profit margin"
I fault both companies here. One of the main reasons I loved the mazda 3 is that Mazda got to put the MZ23 in it without batting an eye. Honda and Toyota can't do anything more than spruce up the econobox engine or dumb down the luxury engine because otherwise it threatens a luxury make.
General tech
Toyota actually got off their butt and made a V8, put it in a new big truck and a couple of new SUV's, and watched them sell relatively well... Honda still has not made a V8, and anything remotely SUVish (that isn't a civic based cute-ute) is a frankenstein version of the oddysey... which was a frankensten version of the accord. Honda has not made any new engines because they are constantly trying to masturbate another 20 HP out of the old ones. The most powerful engine they make is still the same 3.2 litre V6 that was in the NSX with some sort of new cam or ring or something else that inches up the redline or compression another couple of noches.
As for the "things that went horribly wrong that no-one could have predicted"... Acura RSX's, CL's and TL's from around 2000-2003 started having some of the worst transmission problems known to luxury. They tried to put in their new 6-speed automatic and manuals... and instead they got something that kept randomly eating itself or synchros every 7 months without explanation. People took advantage of the resale then, lemme tell ya...
The only reason Honda engines are so bullet proof is because they haven't really updated the design since the 1980's. But now they are struggling to maintain mileage in cars that are getting bigger and heavier to fit with a size/weight increase trend. They are gonna bring over new civics and the Jazz, which might very well suck when converted to the american market. This is why I advise waryness and worry when I see people going on like Honda can do no wrong simply because they are Honda.
Conclusion:
Both Toyota and Honda have started concentrating too much on getting the baby boomers that fell in love with the 80's versions of their cars to come in and buy an acura/lexus... and they have started radically redesigning all their economy models to try and attract disaffected Gen-Y kids and their parents.
Toyota came out with the scion's which were basically funky civic killers when the echo was just a bit too strange. The xA had the mileage and tons of room along with a funky mini-matrix look... and the xB was a roomy box that held more than the element and was less gimicky/expensive... and the tC would blow past any civic on the road. Thus, Honda is being forced to spit out its own line of snazz since the Element attracted 40 year olds instead of college bound kids.
Anyone conjecturing about the build quality of the new civics and that fit/jazz thing... just needs to look at the new Element, It's a crap-box with it's rattle trap doors and plastic/rubber for 20K. With seats that take more room folded up than flat, with less room than the CRV, and with doors that make more noise than the stereo... the dorm room on wheels is just that: cramped, loud, expensive, and something people want to move out of after a year or two.
I think that Honda and Toyota
were reliable, now most of the stuff they have spit out are trying to impress 20 somethings for cheap and their quality/reliability is suspect simply because they are new concepts entirely.
WookieOnRitalin said:
As you so eloquently stated, Honda engines are just bulletproof. They last. In all honesty, that is probably the most important thing about a car. I'm not hating here. I just believe that Honda has not done anything to disprove the fact that they are one of the most reliable car makers on the planet.
Honda drivetrains look perfect because the engineering snafu's of Honda have since been concentrated to the Acura line (transmission go plop)... namely because that's the only place innovation was really happening...
Now, as their engines become /really/ dated and unable to power the new, heavier and more stylish civics, they're gonna be forced to do a major rework of most of their line. The other example of what Honda has thrown into the market to impress us youngsters has been the overpriced and poorly engineered.
Thus, I conjecture that the all-new stuff from Honda might suck on toast and the old stuff was only reliable because they hardly changed anything.
WookieOnRitalin said:
I agree with you that people tend to just fall for the line and just go into denial a lot of times, but I just don't buy it when we're talking Honda. I think they just do a damn good job. It's just a solid company up and down and when it comes to dealerships they are among the best. Honda dealers know what brings people into a Honda dealership and nothing is going to change that except Honda or other car companies by either Honda products taking a sudden NOSE DIVE in their quality or other companies providing products that not only stack up to Honda products, but surpass them.
Today, I just don't think either side has done enough to say to us that the stereotypes are no longer relevent. They are still relevent and it explains why Honda is one of the top automakers.
And I'm saying that stereotypes go up in the air the second new models are released. It's been pointed out that the general build quality seems to have been slipping on Hondas. So I see no point in trying to defend a company that might up and betray itself in a rush to capitalize on the Next Big Thing.
WookieOnRitalin said:
Also Petey, I wasn't talking about the SI. I was talking about the engine in the SI and putting it into basic civics like the Sedan or the Coupe which I think would not be a half bad idea considering that the new SI is going to have a new engine.
If the Si has a new engine it might no longer be bulletproof... and if they put it into basic civics it'll cost too much and no-one will buy this pretty Si they're overcharging for. (laugh)
