Massive smoking issue & crappy idle - after major "improvement" 2003 Mazda Protege :(

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LostinCanada

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2003 Mazda Protege5
(FINALLY SOLVED!!!) Massive smoking issue & other problems... 2003 Mazda Protege5

The ending of the saga... is happy - and can be found on page 7/8.... loving my P5 once again!
(updated October 19, 2015 - tried to change the title of the main thread but I guess you can't)
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The beginning of the story....

(unamused)

Original problem before any repairs: rough (rolling) idle and getting worse (but no CEL), blue startup smoke, oil consumption, slight pinging under load, way overdue timing belt, curiosity and a misguided sense of adventure.

Read on for the summary... resolving one set of problems leads to worse...

FIRST
3 weeks ago, after many hours of online research and reading (have the Mazda Service information) I tore into my engine to replace the timing belt for the first time (myself and the car). Car has approximately 230,000 km (~142,915 mi) and the belt was original. While in there, I changed my crankshaft (front) oil seal, camshaft seals, valve-stem seals (hoping this would cure blue startup smoke issue, oil consumption), water pump and gasket, thermostat, valve cover grommets/bushings/gasket, timing belt, alternator & power steering belts, oil change (synthetic) with filter, coolant flush/change (pet-friendly coolant), spark plugs. All parts from Mazda except fluids/plugs.

RESULT
After much trial/error and a few new tools, I finally got all the work done and the car back together. No CEL... YAY! and timing felt great - no more marbles. Sadly, startup smoke got WORSE! Still blue - about 15 seconds after start up, fog the block for about 1 minute then gone. Only happened after resting overnight, no smoke in cruise. AND my crankshaft oil seal (which was not previously leaking, and despite careful removal/replacement) started LEAKING! :( :(

THEN
After many more hours of online research and reading the service information, I decided to do the valve stem seal job completely over, with a better (really awesome) spring compressor tool and with a completely NEW set of seals just to be safe. Since I didn't know if I had damaged a seal, or if one was simply installed incorrectly, I didn't want to chance taking the engine apart a third time so I chalked it up to the learning experience and bit the bullet ($160 x 2). I replaced the oil seal even more carefully, this time very lightly coating the outside edge with red high-temp pematex. All valve seals re-replaced (one on #2 cylinder seemed loose - didn't find any obvious damage to any of the seals). The good news is that I'm getting very good at the timing and belt install... :(

AND
While in there, as a second major project decided to completely remove the intake manifold for proper cleaning (throttle body was really dirty), bought new gaskets for both the intake manifold, dynamic chamber, EGR valve upgrade kit (brings EGR into the coolant loop with throttle body) - comes with new hoses, EGR and throttle body gaskets, new intake side o-rings for the fuel injectors (really, the new ones don't seem any better than the old ones!). While I had the intake apart, I discovered my car was a victim of the VICS/VTCS recall problem - my VICS screws were all tight, but two VTCS screws missing and the butterfly valves jammed on #3/4 cyl. I discovered my car had already been dealt with by Mazda so I'm no longer eligible for any warranty! I wonder if they only checked the VICS. I was lucky to find the two screws with a magnet in the bottom of the dynamic chamber and cleaned/reassembled using blue loctite on the VTCS screws. I didn't touch the VICS screws since they were so tight I feared stripping them on removal. I debated doing the VTCS delete, however I'm still reading up on this and at this point I want my car running normally before I do any other major work to what was a previously very awesome car.

LATEST RESULT
The good news - crankshaft oil seal seems to be tight, timing great (no CEL). Valve stem seals? Who the heck knows with all the other smoke coming out of my rig - all I know is the Toyo tool I used comes with an installer and I don't see how I could have screwed up the install of any seals this time. New problem after the second major repair: Horrible idle - engine shaking/vibrating (puff puff sound) at idle, jerky throttle response on decel, WTF smoke out the whole damn neighborhood on start-up with mostly whiteish (or does it have a bit of blue tint?) smoke and it lasts and lasts and lasts... acceleration on the throttle seems mushy AND I seem to have an intake leak - suspect the intake manifold gasket as at least one culprit - WTF again - it was new, carefully installed, bolts torqued... :( :(

I checked all the vacuum lines were installed, I sprayed intake cleaner around the engine and the RPM definitely increases. How the heck could the intake gasket be leaking??? I pulled the fuel rail to double check the o-rings installed, but that didn't help. And what the heck is causing this horrible smoking??? I have no evidence of any coolant in the oil. Is it possible the updated EGR valve could be leaking coolant? I quadruple checked I hooked up the lines correctly - and I'm debating whether I should reinstall the old one to rule out the smoke. Is it possible for a leaking intake to cause white smoke? I read in the Mazda troubleshooting that this could be the case, but I don't understand how...


Any suggestions before I start removing the intake system again? As well, I was unable to completely remove my dynamic chamber for cleaning due to that annoying line that goes from the bottom of the throttle body area to the exhaust manifold. That nut remains completely seized despite repeated soaking with Liquid Wrench and I don't dare touch the exhaust side of the same line due to rust/corrosion. It would sure make removal/install easier if I was able to remove this fitting. As a final note - 6 months ago I changed 3 of my four engine mounts (Mazda OEM - 2 were broken) and I've been sitting on #1. It was my intention to tackle this thing during one of these projects, however that in itself is a pain in the butt as I've read, and I'm stuck on the lower nut of the electrical bracket. Any tips/tricks on this project also appreciated.

Thanks to whomever reads this, and I hope you can help with some intel to help me recover my car to a happy state.

















 
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Unfortunately some of these engines develop oil consumption issues at higher mileages, which is usually caused by oil rings that are not sealing well, due to carbon buildup and tension loss. The solution to this is a different engine, a rebuild, or a quick and dirty ring job with the engine still in the car. Although sometimes high mileage oil can mitigate this.

Injector O-rings can cause a vacuum leak, especially after being removed an reinstalled. This can be identified by a strategically placed shot of carb/brake cleaner at each injector base. I feel that this design is prone to leaks when compared to others, but unless disturbed they seldom seem to cause issues.
 
Yes, but how to explain this smoke (and it's a hot summer here) ???:

<iframe frameborder="0" width="560" height="315" src="//www.dailymotion.com/embed/video/x337sxa?autoPlay=1" allowfullscreen></iframe><br /><a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x337sxa_20150826-190818_auto" target="_blank">20150826_190818</a> <i>by <a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/LostintheNorth" target="_blank">LostintheNorth</a></i>

What you see here fades in and out of intensity for 15-20 minutes before I finally give up waiting and start driving... and the darn smoke kept following me down the highway!!! The problem is definitely growing worse, and acceleration on the throttle is mushy - there's a lag in response, and the engine surges. I almost turned around and went home but after 10 minutes of driving on the highway it kind of subdued itself.

I've heard mixed opinions about the oil consumption, and perhaps you're right in that a future rebuild might be in order. However that doesn't solve my immediate problem. The car has consumed oil since I bought it, however the power, performance and everything else has been awesome - this thing has (had) lots of jam until the recent repairs. Now it runs like crap. Solving this is my immediate concern.

I will test your theory about the fuel injectors, but still question the smoke. Is it possible the updated EGR is to blame? That smoke is new, and is much whiter than my original startup smoke, not to mention this fog doesn't burn off!

The fuel injector o-rings (from Mazda) are most annoying - they are not a good fit. - I bought new ones, and they are no better than those I replaced. They are smaller than the hole in the intake manifold and they do not seal well. Can I or should I use some kind of sealant around the o-ring? It seems silly to have to put liquid gasket around everything that calls for a factory o-ring or gasket! - I've never had to do this with any previous vehicle! One of the new o-rings - on #4 cyl actually came apart on yesterdays fuel rail troubleshooting. It seems the o-rings are in two pieces, and then assembled. I did fiddle everything back together and try to confirm a good seal to the manifold by pushing down around the o-rings with a screw driver. Nothing good came of this.
 
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I posted a thread about the injector seals a few months ago. There is a Beck/Arnley seal kit for them, but you usually have to order it.

That does look like coolant smoke but it's hard to tell on a cold engine.

The EGR valve shouldn't be open on a cold start, so I wouldn't think that's the issue, but I could be wrong.

I would start looking over the coolant hoses that run to the throttle body, and ensure that none of them were installed on a vacuum port accidentally. You can clamp them off with a vice grips one at a time.
 
I'd like to say I'm offended by the suggestion (coolant hose to vacuum line) however something is clearly amiss and mine are the only hands that have been inside the engine. I'll check. Actually if I don't see anything obvious my intention was to replace the new EGR with the old one before I do anything else to see if that takes care of the smoke or not.

I searched for injector seals protege5, then scrolled back through your posts since May and didn't find your topic - would you mind posting a link? Are these Beck/Arnley seals better than Mazda stock? These new o-rings from Mazda were $4/ea and they suck (possibly literally) .

After I do the EGR swap and test, my next intention was to pull the manifold again and if no tears in the seal found, to reassemble with a thin coating of Permatex copper high temp gasket. Your thoughts? Originally I was going to use the red high temp but I see that the copper is for high performance and higher temp so I figured it must be better.

So far I've been unable to free that exhaust line at the bottom of the throttle body on the dynamic chamber, which makes wiggling/disassembly/reassembly of the dynamic chamber/intake manifold a pain - unless I missed any bolts on the dynamic chamber aside from those coming through the intake manifold? I'm aware of the two on the bracket (under the car). Is there a trick? I don't want to strip or break the fitting and cause even more grief, but it sure would be nice to free the thing.
 
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Thanks! Yes, strange indeed. So while I had the IM off the car I forensically cleaned the fuel injector port in the IM. Soaked the new Mazda seals in synthetic oil and installed in the head, replaced the fuel rail as you described in your thread. I didn't mess with the upper o-rings because they were expensive (I'm already ridiculously over budget when all is added up) and I never disturbed the fuel injectors from the rail while I was working - I just lay the disconnected rail out of the way. I've also considered putting the old "donuts" back on (after I do your selective spray test). (pissed)

The EGR pipe at the exhaust end looks severely rusted/corroded so I'm a little leary of messing with it. The intake end doesn't look too bad but so far hasn't budged. I've been using a crescent wrench due to lack of a large enough metric wrench - I thought it would be24 mm but I found one post where it said 25 mm - do you remember which size it is? I might just pick up the correct size on the next test drive - of course there isn't much room to use the leverage of a big wrench on that fitting!
 
UPDATE>>> Some issues resolved, but I think I definitely have a coolant leak (not head gasket) - IAC gasket???

Ok. Yesterday I resolved to get to the bottom of things before driving the car any further - particularly in the case of a coolant leak running through the engine. I disconnected the wiring harness, fuel rail, air intake and removed the throttle body (in preparation for possibly removing the IM again).

>>Discovered the bottom of the new gasket was wet! and already starting to disintegrate - smelled like coolant. (see red x's in photo below) I set it aside to dry. I removed the new, updated EGR and reinstalled the old one. Then I went around and checked all the IM/Dynamic chamber fasteners, and I did find one in the middle of the IM-head that was not as tight as the others - oops. I then painstakingly and carefully reinstalled the fuel rail - what a PIB with plastic spacers and donuts raring to leap out of their respective places at the slightest touch. I debated permatexing the throttle body gasket for my "test" and then decided against it - harder to remove/clean in the event of immediate removal. Plus I want a new one now...

The other thing I discovered was the VTCS actuator rod "e-ring" had fallen off.... During the original removal of the IM the tiny little VICS e-ring went flying into space (rant) - did I mention I'm working over a gravel driveway??? Anyway, my Mazda parts guy informs me the e-rings are "discontinued" and a trip to Lordco on my mountain bike resulted in an e-ring slightly too big - all they had. Guy assured me it would work... NOT. Anyway, for the test I just pushed the rod on the connector as far as it would go. Dunno if NAPA can help, or maybe the local auto wrecker.

Ran the car... idle hugely improved, and stable. Startup smoke still white, but not nearly as bad and finally dissipated (for the most part). I'm wondering if the gasket between the IAC and the throttle body is to blame? I marked the inside of the throttle body photo with the suspected entry point (red arrow) - it seems like the IAC gasket breach could allow coolant in through this port? Originally I tried to remove the IAC and put a new gasket but the screws were seized tight and at the first hint of starting to strip (despite repeated soaking) I decided to leave well enough alone. Or, is it possible to have a hairline fracture in the throttle body? - see parts diagram below...

Test drive was much better, although still some surging on acceleration, and Torque numbers for short term fuel trim all over the map. This seemed to calm down with further driving so perhaps it is just the PCM adapting - I'll test drive again today.

BTW I can now emphatically rule out the swapping of lines between the throttle body and EGR valve. The air/coolant fittings are quite different and even if one could possibly screw that up, the attached instructions for the upgrade are very clear as to what goes where. Thankfully I got this part right! (rolleyes)

Here's my theory - the updated EGR valve increases the coolant loop by integrating it with the throttle body. Perhaps this exacerbated the leak? Any opinions before I try reinstalling the new EGR again?







 
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It's quite possible that the gasket was leaking into the throttle body. A crack is unlikely though.

It'll take some time for the coolant to get burned out of your engine though. It would be a good idea to change your plugs.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to unhook the battery and reset everything, if you hadn't already. A vacuum leak will throw your fuel trims out of whack, since the PCM will need to add fuel to compensate for the additional air.
 
Thanks for that. Yes the battery was unplugged yesterday while I was messing around... out of curiosity how long must the battery be unplugged to reset the PCM?

Since I posted this I've been digging around online and have found that the FS engines quite commonly had the IAC gasket leak, causing hundreds of cases of completely seized screws... (rant) and presenting like a leaky head gasket with white smoke in the tail pipe. Phoned my friendly Mazda parts guy and explained my theory - he's ordered me 4 screws, an IAC gasket and new (again!) throttle body gasket. Once I fix that up I will reinstall the new EGR valve... hopefully problem gone. My original EGR valve wasn't seized - although I have been trying to get to the bottom of the idle issues (in hindsight I think these were mostly due to jammed VTCS - missing screws - and dirty intake manifold/throttle body). That said, the Canadian update to the EGR valve (01-07-17) is a huge improvement to the design and I don't regret the upgrade (unless it's defective... lol... but I doubt it).

Now how to unseize those damn IAC screws without stripping the heads!
 
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Huh! LOL I tried a poor person's version of that this afternoon (whacking my screw driver with a hammer - to no avail). Princess Auto apparently has a similar item - I'll try that out tomorrow after I pick up the IAC and throttle body gaskets. Happy to find the correct size e-ring for my VTCS actuator at the wrecker today too! :) I'm still getting erratic power results with throttle application - but it may be the VTCS control is not behaving properly.
 
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UPDATE! Thanks MrGiggles for your suggestion re impact screwdriver - found a smaller version at Princess Auto and pre-soaked the screws a couple of times uusing Tri-Flow LPS2. Came apart with little effort and no damage. Cleaned everything up and put new IAC gasket, new throttle body gasket and reinstalled the updated EGR. Still some startup smoke but it could be the rings as you suggested - definitely a lot less, and doesn't hang around long. For sure the IAC gasket was leaking badly. So far I don't detect any intake leaks and the idle seems pretty smooth. Only got a partial test drive in so can't speak to throttle response and/or power yet.
 
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I'm not sure what to say about the camshaft seals. Where did you buy them?

So has the smoking stopped? It sounds like you suspected that the IAC gasket? But I don't see how that would cause smoking.

Oil burning is very common with this engine. Early thoughts (from a couple years ago) theorized valve seals due to burning on start up, but some have since found it to be the piston rings instead. It's probably burning all the time, just much more at startup.
 
Hi Maroon,

The camshaft seals are fine (from Mazda) - it's the new crankshaft seal I installed (two separate installs). The original seal wasn't leaking, however since I was doing the timing belt I elected to replace (mistake!!!) it since the car/seal is 12 years old. Despite my care during install the darn thing leaked. So when I went back in to re-do the valve stem seals to address the original startup smoke which had worsened (rant) , I redid the crankshaft seal as well (new from Mazda) - a little skim of high temp sealant around the outside seems to have cured the issue.

The coolant leak was a separate issue, and if you read my post above, I discovered it when I removed the throttle body during my troubleshooting and discovered the gasket was covered in coolant. I now think a small leak was present all along (perhaps blending with the startup smoke) and was exacerbated with the install of the new/updated EGR valve which introduces extra coolant lines between the EGR valve and throttle body. Perhaps the throttle body cleaning got to the IAC gasket as well. The gasket is just very thin rubber.

It's actually quite common for the IAC gasket to leak apparently, and present the same symptoms as a leaky head gasket - constant white smoke. Apparently many FS engines in various Mazda models have suffered this - I discovered a good write-up with pictures on a Mazda 626 forum. That case was a 1989-1992 model had a slightly different IAC which had a paper gasket and a rubber o-ring around the coolant port - post 1992 626 models have the same (or similar) IAC/rubber gasket that we do. You can see from my photo above where the leak at the throttle body was - and from the parts diagram how it is possible for coolant to arrive at this point. That problem is fixed now with the new IAC gasket (from Mazda). Thanks to MrGiggles for suggesting an impact screwdriver to separate the IAC - those screws were seized solid despite presoaking and many have stripped them. Thankfully I didn't.

I still have (blue) startup smoke, however after two rounds of brand new valve stem seals (just to be sure one wasn't defective - and I did find one halfway through that hadn't seated properly) I now think it must be the rings as some suggest. LOL its likely my valve stem seals were never the culprit, however I learned a lot doing the job so other than the extra cash spent I don't regret doing the work - at least it rules out one culprit.

The car does go through a fair bit of oil - internally. I'm running factory spec Penzoil Platinum synthetic and the car gets regular oil changes.
 
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I went through the same deal when I bought mine. Got a great deal on it because it smoked like a freight train for 5-10 minutes until it warmed up, and burned a quart of oil in 3-500 miles. It started and ran great though, compression was still in spec.

The parts required for a rebuild totaled around 500 dollars without any machine work, and that assumed the lower end was okay, which it was not. I opted for an 800 dollar JDM engine instead, which worked out well for me.
 
What do you mean by lower end being "okay" (or not okay)? And what is a JDM engine?

And where do you even get rings/supplies for this sort of project?

Just curious...
 
JDM = Japanese Domestic Market. I don't know the differences between that and a USDM engine (which is probably what you have being in Canada).

Unless there's something different about the piston/piston rings in JDM engines that prevent oil burning, there's no chance I would install a used engine in one of these cars without tearing it down to replace the rings and valve seals. And at that point, it would end up being a complete rebuild which you could just do on the engine you have. You're really rolling the dice by swapping engines to solve oil burning. It's a very common problem with these cars.

I have the oil burning problem. Given all the problems these cars have, it simply isn't worth the time and money to tear apart. You live in Canada, how much rust does your car have?
 
The car has very little rust - just a few little spots here and there where the paint got chipped from road debris. This car has the original transaxle and engine and seems to have been well looked after. Certainly I have taken very good care of it and performed several upgrades. I doubt the car had more than one or two owners judging from the maintenance records I was able to glean from Mazda. Unless there was something that was catastrophically wrong in the "bottom end" - does this mean cylinder bores? - I agree, I would rather rebuild this engine over taking over an unknown used one - unless there was some significantly good reason to do so.

I have the engine overhaul manual from Mazda, along with the service manual - not sure how difficult it would be to do most of the work myself, but I think it would be a fun learning project. I'm aware that it will still be a 12 year old car, however I own it outright (no debt), it looks very presentable and it is funner than heck to drive - manual transaxle. Despite the fact that the timing belt/valve stem seal project suffered some complications, in the end it was a good project and the first time I've been "inside" the engine.

I found this site which had a good write up on installing the crankshaft seal - I used this for the second install and it seems to now be tight http://www.instructables.com/id/Crankshaft-seal-installer-tool/ and I am keen to try this method. I found that with the wheel well frame so close there is little room to whack (gently) on any home made seal installer (found a pvc fitting from Home Depot that fit nicely) however pressing it into place with the crankshaft bolt, pvc fitting and large washer is a great solution. This writeup is where I got the suggestion of the skim of high temp gasket seal around the outside. Did that on the camshaft seals also - again, only on the outside and very thin skim.
 
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There is an easy test to see if you have bad valve seals or bad oil rings.

Leave your car sit overnight then remove each sparkplug. Shine a light down the hole and see if there is oil on top of any of the pistons.

If they are wet then you have leaky valve seals.

Then put your plugs back in, start your engine and run it for a few seconds and shut it off again.

Remove your plugs again and check for oil on top of your pistons again.

If your pistons are wet with oil, then you have bad oil rings.

If your pistons are dry then I don't know what's wrong with your car and I suggest taking it out behind the barn and shooting it.... A sledgehammer works well too.
 
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