Let's Hate America, it is the fun thing to do.

[i12drivemyMP5]

America's economy supports a lot of the world's growth. Cut off China's imports here & who will take up the slack? They lose. All oil bearing nation's growth & viability is tied to us burning gas in our vehicles. If/when we bust out with some alternate form of energy on a large scale or these ***** wanna play games with exports or they do something to hose our economy & we're not buying it then where does their money come from? If China is not exporting all their s*** here then their people stop working, stop making money, stop feeding their economy then they won't be taking up the slack that we leave so again, they all lose. So everyone wishing death & destruction to America are basically ******* themselves. They are also wishing that upon all their own people who have come here for a better life (that are probably sending their profits from here back to where they came from to some extent). So yeah, where's all that shortsighted bulls*** gonna get anybody? It's a global economy, it's all tied together. Hose our s***, hose yourself.

 

[Donas64]

America has terrorist ties too. Whats your point?
Your claim that anti war movements are looking for Americas defeat would be an inaccurate assessment, in my case anyway. I dont think my government has our best interests at heart. I dont think they answer to the American people anymore. They answer to big money interests, and in a capitalist society where the dollar is worshipped above all else, good and right are not always the same thing. We the people are no more than an annoyance to be placated.

I dont wish for our defeat, but I dont see successes for America on this road. We are in fact making our problems worse by our actions. This road is helping someone, but not us. Were sure footing the bill for it though. New leadership is what I want and I want it 6 years ago.

Please note that I made it quite clear that there are SOME in the Anti-war movement that are invested in our defeat. No all but SOME. I tried to make it abundantly clear. And I stand by that comment. That being said, I don't believe you are among them. I also agree that alternative fuels need to be pursued but thats also easier said than done. In the meantime why don't we have more oil exploration here in America and increase our refining capacity? Do you think that environmentalists have anything to do with this?

As for the capitalistic society, thats the nature of the beast. I much prefer it to a communist/socialist society, but it comes with it's own pitfalls.

I guess the question I have for you is what would you do in this situation. Alternative fuels are still a ways of in being viable for keeping our economy on the move. So how would you fix our Issues?

Would you scrap our capitalistic system?

How would you fight the war on terror?

Do you think that there is a better system than captialism?

Would you do all you could to help America maintain it's present status as a superpower?

Do you even want America to still be a Superpower?

I am in no way trying to pick a fight. I just want to know what your solutions for all that ails this country would be.

P.S: Slightly off topic: Has anyone noticed that there is nothing in the News about the strength and steady growth of our economy and about how the DOW almost surpassed it's all time high?

 

[Donas64]

America's economy supports a lot of the world's growth. Cut off China's imports here & who will take up the slack? They lose. All oil bearing nation's growth & viability is tied to us burning gas in our vehicles. If/when we bust out with some alternate form of energy on a large scale or these ***** wanna play games with exports or they do something to hose our economy & we're not buying it then where does their money come from? If China is not exporting all their s*** here then their people stop working, stop making money, stop feeding their economy then they won't be taking up the slack that we leave so again, they all lose. So everyone wishing death & destruction to America are basically ******* themselves. They are also wishing that upon all their own people who have come here for a better life (that are probably sending their profits from here back to where they came from to some extent). So yeah, where's all that shortsighted bulls*** gonna get anybody? It's a global economy, it's all tied together. Hose our s***, hose yourself.

BRILLIANT!
FTW!
(first)


I almost want to put that in my sig!

 

[Doodsmack]

saddam did not support terrorism. saddam saw subnational extremism as a threat (probably because of the Kurds) and actively kept them out. a senate report was released a couple weeks ago which confirmed this. moreover, the senate intelligence committe harshly criticized the intelligence which the bush administration used to connect saddam with terrorism. consequently bush made the cia a scapegoat, so its leader (george tenet) resigned and the intelligence system was overhauled.

it is all well and good to support your troops and country, but iraq was folly from the outset and will likely end in humiliation, just like vietnam. your hopes that iraq will be "beacon" for freedom and stability reflect an unawareness of the geopolitical complexities involved. almost all of the votes cast in the december 05 iraqi elections were for parties that were drawn on sectarian lines (not strictly political lines). there will be a backlash against the sunni minority which supported saddam. moreover, iran, syria, and jordan, with their sunni majorities, have a vested interest in resisting a shi'ite majority in iraq. the presense of US troops is the only thing holding up democracy in iraq.

you pretty much cant construe the war in iraq as anything besides poor statecraft. so whatever else we're argueing about, like the supposed short-sightedness of the left wing, are seperate issues. and there is no overt reason that america needs to be a superpower. it is great that we are, because i like being affluent. but do you think there are no happy people in other countries? actually i dont even think the majority of americans are happy. most of them are unthinking automatons to our dumbed-down popular culture.

and by the way, america is not and has never been omnibenevolent, like you say. our nationalist identity is a ideological mask to the same degree that any other country's identity is. the destruction of the indigenous North and South American populations, and the centuries-long enslavement of black people should be your first hints. those rank among the worst atrocities of modern history.

 

[Donas64]

I know a lot of people think that the Govt. Only has the interest of big coorporations at heart. I honestly don't believe that to be true. And I don't see whats so bad in having a little bit of confidence and pride in where you live and where you come from. People say that the U.S has an ego problem is a little misleading. I don't care what anyone say: BAR NONE, WITHOUT A DOUBT, this is %100 percent the greatest country in the world. There I said it. You know how I know this?

I wasn't born here, didn't grow up here, I don't take for granted what the govt. of this country (which is financed by the taxpayers of this country) does for its people.

The food stamps
The govt housing
The plans to make medicine affordable
The countless programs to help you get back on your feet
and countless other things.

no other country does as much to give its people a chance to make a success of themselves as America.

I come from a country where you only have electricty 3 or 4 days out of the week.

Where clean Drinking water is a premium

Where you have have a PH.D and not find a job no matter how hard you look.

Where the education system is in a shambles (it can be pretty bad here but it's light years ahead of what it is in my country)

Where most people don't know where their next meal is coming from.

I have never and will never say that America is perfect or that George Bush, Bill Clinton, Ronald Reagan go as far back as you want were perfect presidents. But despite the countrys flaws and the flaws of its leaders, it still is the greatest force for good in the world today. So America pursures its own interests you say? I don't see anything wrong with that as long as it helps others where it can along the way.

Like I've said over and over. I sense almost a disdain for the greatness of this country not all from those less fortunate, but from a lot of it's citizens as well. People who hate not only George Bush, but the country itself. People who have grown up in relatively comforable lives, who have been kept save and given opportunities by the govt and leadership they love to hate, and will go to bed knowing that they have the opportunity to strive for excellence tomorrow.

The above statements are not directed to anyone on this thread or this board. Just the musings of a very lucky immigrant.

If you've seen what I've seen and lived in some of the places I lived, you would thank God for America and all it's merits and have a new appreciation for YOUR country.

 

[Donas64]

but do you think there are no happy people in other countries? actually i dont even think the majority of americans are happy. most of them are unthinking automatons to our dumbed-down popular culture.

and by the way, america is not and has never been omnibenevolent, like you say. our nationalist identity is a ideological mask to the same degree that any other country's identity is. the destruction of the indigenous North and South American populations, and the centuries-long enslavement of black people should be your first hints. those rank among the worst atrocities of modern history.

Forgive for saying this but who made you an authority on the mood of most Americans? To say that most Americans are unthinking automatons too dumbed down by our popular culture is a statement that just reeks of Arrogance. That arrogance and "I know best" attitude is very similat to what most people blame the Govt of having towards it's citizens.

Would you include yourself among the "dumb masses of Americans"?

I don't beleive in any way that America is omnibenevolent. But those were different times. Those things were atrocious and wrong and should never be forgotten so they are never repeated but those times do not reflect the America of today. Those were the bloody birthings of a nation that still suffers from the "guilt" of those actions today. The guilt over slavery and the killing of native americans should not erase the fact that America has done a lot of Good since those times.

I'm black. I detest the tought of slavery. But I know that none of my white brothers and sisters in America today were directly responsible for the slavery of blacks back then. I think that they need to let their guilt go. The same way that blacks need to let their victim mentality go and embrace the opportunities that this country gives them. Slavery had a deep impact on the black community and still does till this day. But this country fought against that oppression and against that slavery and in the end it did the right thing. Thats the mark of a great nation. There are some nations that still practice slavery today.

While you are right in saying that those offenses were among the worst in history, you must remember that thats exactly what is is now: HISTORY! If those things were still going on till this day, them we should all be ashamed.

What about America teaming up with it's Allies to defeat the Nazis and the Communists? Were those not good things? Could those victories have been accomplished without America?

I'm not a dumb sheep. My father is a Diplomat, I've seen the world, I'm educated. I've seen good and I've seen evil, I've been the victim of racism and benefitted from being a minority and foreigner. I think that by and large America is good. And Overall Americans are smart, warm, intelligent people. Being such a diverse nation there will be differences in opinion.

But If asked if America is inherently a force for good or evil, I would Answer GOOD without any hesitation.

If asked if America was perfect, I would say not by a long shot, but theres no place I'd rather call home.

 

[1st Gen]

Please note that I made it quite clear that there are SOME in the Anti-war movement that are invested in our defeat. No all but SOME. I tried to make it abundantly clear. And I stand by that comment. That being said, I don't believe you are among them. I also agree that alternative fuels need to be pursued but thats also easier said than done. In the meantime why don't we have more oil exploration here in America and increase our refining capacity? Do you think that environmentalists have anything to do with this?

As for the capitalistic society, thats the nature of the beast. I much prefer it to a communist/socialist society, but it comes with it's own pitfalls.

I guess the question I have for you is what would you do in this situation. Alternative fuels are still a ways of in being viable for keeping our economy on the move. So how would you fix our Issues?

Would you scrap our capitalistic system?

How would you fight the war on terror?

Do you think that there is a better system than captialism?

Would you do all you could to help America maintain it's present status as a superpower?

Do you even want America to still be a Superpower?

I am in no way trying to pick a fight. I just want to know what your solutions for all that ails this country would be.

P.S: Slightly off topic: Has anyone noticed that there is nothing in the News about the strength and steady growth of our economy and about how the DOW almost surpassed it's all time high?

Those are all honest and respectable questions, and yes you did stipulate that not all antiwar movements call for the demise of America.
Ronald Raygun and Margaret Thatcher began a system of deregulation that has spanned the economic plains and highlands of our respective economies. From the radio spectrum to the energy sources, privatization has been the call word of the day, and in fact the last 2 decades. It was their solution to stagflation. Let the market fund the development and distribution of technologies like cell phone service and well get the most bang for our buck because competition will insure the lowest possible price at the same time were getting the most economically viable product.

There is a flaw in the system though. A lot of those regulations were put there for our protection. Anti trust laws for instance keep competition healthy and in check. Regulation of the media helps maintains a level of integrity in our news reporting and our advertisements. Social programs help the poor get a leg up and people with drug addictions get treatment. Laws are in place to protect our air, our water, our national treasures, and even our freedom. These have all been under attack in the rush to deregulate.

The incarceration industry for instance trades on the public stock exchange. Prisons are being built with the anticipation of making a profit. That can only happen if their beds are full. Excuse me but is that what we use our penal system for? The war on drugs has created an enormous supply of product for these industries, as well as the 3 strikes and youre out laws. What is not generally known is that the recidivism rate for the people getting out of the institutions is very high. By contrast, a system of rehabilitation with elements of treatment and job training far and away surpasses any type of incarceration for its low instance of re-offenders. The only problem is that it doesnt pay as much money.

There have even been elements of the the new deal that have been under attack which was a direct result of the great depression. Those lessons are being forgotten it seems.

I constantly see products on the market that are priced not according to cost but according to what the market will bare. We saw this all summer with the over inflated gas prices. The checks and balances that protected the American people from abuses by these industries have all but disappeared. Anybody want to talk about payday loans?

My solution to the problem is simple. Democratic oversight. Take away corporate personhood. Restore an element of integrity to our news organizations so the American people can make the decisions instead of trusting these jackals to make them for us. Start funding our future again by investing in our schools.

The war on terror is a reaction to our own policies. If we quit menacing these people, the war on terror will take care of itself. Their only crime is that they live in a region that has a wealth of oil.

Out of time.

 

[Doodsmack]

thats great that america, in general, is good. my point is that the bush administration is not. you shouldnt believe that bush is by default good, because of the fact that america is by default good.

halliburton, valerie plame, yellow cake uranium, saudi royal family, iraq war, jack abramoff

please examine the wealth disparity in america, between the super-rich and poor, and tell me that america is doing the best it can for its own citizens. the legal protection of corporations under the guise of free market rights? WTF is that. nothing about the war in iraq, or corporate privatism, is reflective of the good nature of america.

 

[Donas64]

thats great that america, in general, is good. my point is that the bush administration is not. you shouldnt believe that bush is by default good, because of the fact that america is by default good.

halliburton, valerie plame, yellow cake uranium, saudi royal family, iraq war, jack abramoff

please examine the wealth disparity in america, between the super-rich and poor, and tell me that america is doing the best it can for its own citizens. the legal protection of corporations under the guise of free market rights? WTF is that. nothing about the war in iraq, or corporate privatism, is reflective of the good nature of america.

Bush is not perfect but I don't consider him evil nor do I harbor intense hatred towards him either. I question some of his choices and totally agree with others.

Haliburton: That was rather poor judgement to use them but this is an interesting article that shows that there are several sides to every story.

http://www.slate.com/id/2099680/

I see you point though and would probably have used another contractor.

valerie plame: This was much ado about nothing and a complete was of time and a pointless investigation. Not only was she NOT an undercover agent ( posing on cover of vanity fair e.t.c), but he husbands whole story was a pack of lies. This was just a scheme to try and get Rumsfeld, Cheney and maybe even Bush with leaking info. Now that it's come out that RICHARD ARMITAGE was responisble for the leak (by his own admission), this scheme has been blown out of the water.

yellow cake uranium: See Above and the load of lies told by plames husband.

saudi royal family: What about them? Several presidents have had a relationship with them. Jimmy Carter had a close relationship with Saudi Prince Bandar. Is oil involved? You bet! But is that in and of itself evil? I'm not sure what you referring too.

Iraq War: The debate will forever go back and forth about the reason we invaded and it's a discussion worth having. Some don't consider it a mistake, others do. And it's not necesarily a Rep/Dem thing. I'll give you just one example. Dennis Miller who you could infer has Liberal leanings is totally gung ho for the war in Iraq. And there are some prominent conservatives that are gung ho against the war. I personally think that we should have gone after Syria.

jack abramoff: This individual has been been linked to both Republicans and Democrats.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/03/AR2005050301792.html

He had his tentacles in a lot of stuff. I will say this, I believe that corruption is corruption. Wether you are a Republican or Democrat. If you're caught breaking the rules, there should be some sort of disciplinary action.

 

[1st Gen]

The perception for a lot of people in the Middle East is that the conflict boils down to the Prophet vs. The profit, essentially, good vs evil. Guess which one we are? Our actions have proven our intent over and over again and I dont see us seeking redemption any time soon.

 

[Donas64]

Sorry I forgot to address the middle class issue. I don't believe in wealth redistibution. I beleive that this country does provide for entreprenuers the opportunity to make successes of themselves. In America you can be as rich or as poor as you want to be and that has not changed. I don't care how much money someone has as long as they got it legally and did not cheat or swindle. I see a vibrant middle class in America. I mean just look around you. Is there poverty? Sure but there is also opportunity. Most people are just oto lazy (myself included) to really make the sacrifices needed to reach for greatness.

I consider myself lower-middle class. My wife and I are recent college grads. Her on students loans, me on a scholarship. We don't have a great combined income but we were able (through a 1st time home buyers program) to purchase a nice little 1600 sq. ft. home for ourselves. We have 2 cars in good condition, have enough money to pay our bills, feed and clothe ourselves and have a little money left over for fun and put away a little for retirement stuff and God willing it will only get better as our earnings increase and we pay off debt.

I think that most people think that things are worse than they are due to the pessimistic slant of the maintream media. All you hear is poverty/ death/ killing/high gas prices/hurricanes/ e.t.c.

What you won't hear are stories about:

How the DOW almost hit an all time high yesterday
Gas Prices are plummetting
The hurricane season has been incredibly light
There are more minority businesses starting up now than ever before e.t.c.

If I wanted to earn more money, I could quit my job and search for one that payed more or maybe start my own graphic design business and thats the beautiful thing, I can actually try and do that if I wished.

I don't think the middle class in America is as bad as some people think it to be.

 

[Doodsmack]

" I believe that corruption is corruption. Whether you are a Republican or Democrat. If you're caught breaking the rules, there should be some sort of disciplinary action."

have you heard of abramoff's extensive contacts with White House officials? is this not reason to believe the the United States, the Bush's, policies are not inherently admirable?

yellow cake uranium was part of the phony intelligence connecting saddam to WMD and terrorism. bush himself has since admitted that his intelligence was unsubstantiated, so i can't see you defending it. in fact i see it as almost impossible to defend the war in iraq at this point, for this reason, and the reasons i stated in my first post.

it's not that most liberals hate our country, its that we hate the mismanagement of our country. in any case, there is no need to love one's country if one has come to a wise and realistic assessment of the countries' actions and motives, and with time these actions and motives don't show signs of improvement. americans are disillusioned by the excessive self-righteousness which is ingrained into their nationalist indentity. yes we are free and affluent, and enjoy an exceptionally successful government structure, but not since WW2 have our leaders given us much reason to adore them. this does not mean i would take up arms and revolt, it means i would direct the immense potential we have to what i truly believe to be right.