LED turn signal question

[oroboy]

I've been slowly changing out all the lights on my car to LED's, and only have to do the turn signals now. I've been researching around and noticed that due to the amount of power the LED's draw (less than filament bulbs), the turn signals flash at a higher rate of speed. Various websites that sell LED's for turn signals offer a couple of solutions to remedy the problem; load resisters, and electronic flasher-blinker fix.

I wanted to go the way of the electronic flasher-blinker fix, because it looks like you only have to buy 1 unit, and it's a simple plug-n-play application. My question is, where is the turn signal relay located? I want to compare so that I purchase the correct blinker fix. Here's the page of blinker fix units:

http://www.v-leds.com/Shop/Control/fp/scat/132273/SFV/32481


Has anyone installed LED blinkers and used one of these items? I don't really want to go the load resister route...

 

[kosh2258]

No relay...

I know the turn signal "click" is electronic and comes from the left dash speaker.

I tried turning on the turn signals and listening for a relay cycling. The turn signal control unit appears to be somewhere in the left rear fender under the floor. If you listen in back you can hear it clicking in that area. However, that may just be a simple relay being turned on and off. Neither the factory service manual or the wiring diagram reference a turn signal relay. The diagrams indicate the turn signals are controlled by the Body Control Module (BCM) and no conventional turn signal relay is shown in the diagrams.

Ted

 

[oroboy]

I know the turn signal "click" is electronic and comes from the left dash speaker.

I tried turning on the turn signals and listening for a relay cycling. The turn signal control unit appears to be somewhere in the left rear fender under the floor. If you listen in back you can hear it clicking in that area. However, that may just be a simple relay being turned on and off. Neither the factory service manual or the wiring diagram reference a turn signal relay. The diagrams indicate the turn signals are controlled by the Body Control Module (BCM) and no conventional turn signal relay is shown in the diagrams.

Ted

Hey Ted, thank you for taking the time to answer my question, I really do appreciate the help. I did find a couple of relays in a small box off to the left of the fuse box in the engine compartment. A look under the cover of that small box shows that one of the relays as being the "TNS" relay. I'm guessing that's the turn signal relay... I'll check it out later today. Once again, thanks for taking the time to help Ted. You da man!(bowdown)

 

[kosh2258]

Hey Ted, thank you for taking the time to answer my question, I really do appreciate the help. I did find a couple of relays in a small box off to the left of the fuse box in the engine compartment. A look under the cover of that small box shows that one of the relays as being the "TNS" relay. I'm guessing that's the turn signal relay... I'll check it out later today. Once again, thanks for taking the time to help Ted. You da man!(bowdown)

Sorry to say, the TNS relay is not for the turn signals. It has to do with the activating of all the exterior lights (stands for Tail, Number, Side lights) except the headlights - TNS is the first stop on the headlight switch.

As I said, the wiring diagrams don't show any relay in the turn signal circuit. This appears to be managed by the BCM computer and simply trips a relay in the rear of the vehicle to open and close the circuits to the various bulbs.

 

[Sandawgk5]

Thermal flashers are old school. I do not have any schematics to look at but I would bet dollars to donuts that the flashers on our cars are electronically controlled and swapping LEDs for the filament bulbs will have no ill effect on the flash rate of your lights.

Dik

 

[kosh2258]

Thermal flashers are old school. I do not have any schematics to look at but I would bet dollars to donuts that the flashers on our cars are electronically controlled and swapping LEDs for the filament bulbs will have no ill effect on the flash rate of your lights.

Dik

That's what I'm thinking, too.

Ted

 

[oroboy]

Thermal flashers are old school. I do not have any schematics to look at but I would bet dollars to donuts that the flashers on our cars are electronically controlled and swapping LEDs for the filament bulbs will have no ill effect on the flash rate of your lights.

Dik

That's what I'm thinking, too.

Ted

Actually, I think I remember reading somwhere here in one of the CX-9 forums that someone did put in LED turn signals, and that they had to end up using load resisters to return the flash rate to normal...

I could be wrong though.

 

[mysleeper6]

I think several people have changed out the side markers (non-flashing) on the MS6 to LED lights, and then done the turn-signal mod (making them flash alternately with the front-mounted turn signals). I seem to remember someone saying that no further modification (i.e. load resistor) was necessary. Sorry I don't have the link, but you might try checking out the 6/MS6 threads. I'm pretty sure it was there.

 

[oroboy]

I think several people have changed out the side markers (non-flashing) on the MS6 to LED lights, and then done the turn-signal mod (making them flash alternately with the front-mounted turn signals). I seem to remember someone saying that no further modification (i.e. load resistor) was necessary. Sorry I don't have the link, but you might try checking out the 6/MS6 threads. I'm pretty sure it was there.

Thanks for the heads-up, I'll take a look around the other forum sections...

 

[l-miwa]

I have tried swapping the rear turn signal lamps with LED's (same bulb as the reverse lights, just a different color) and they blink at the high rate. Unfortunately, it seems that if you want to go LED's for the turn signals, you'll need to go with load resistors.

I've heard the relay in the back clicking, but I figured it was for the factory trailer towing package I have. They often include an additional relay just to handle the trailer lamp load.

 

[kosh2258]

I have tried swapping the rear turn signal lamps with LED's (same bulb as the reverse lights, just a different color) and they blink at the high rate. Unfortunately, it seems that if you want to go LED's for the turn signals, you'll need to go with load resistors.

I've heard the relay in the back clicking, but I figured it was for the factory trailer towing package I have. They often include an additional relay just to handle the trailer lamp load.

My experience with load resistors is that they get hotter & hell when in operation for long enough. I tried doing the LED turn signal thing a few years back with another car I owned and gave up on it because the resistors got hot enough to melt plastic and the LED's were too hard to see in the daylight. Granted, that was when LED's were first coming out and the learning curve for them was still on the uphill side. The LED modules have gotten better since then but the load or, more correctly, lack of load problem still plagues.

Ted

 

[oroboy]

My experience with load resistors is that they get hotter & hell when in operation for long enough. I tried doing the LED turn signal thing a few years back with another car I owned and gave up on it because the resistors got hot enough to melt plastic and the LED's were too hard to see in the daylight. Granted, that was when LED's were first coming out and the learning curve for them was still on the uphill side. The LED modules have gotten better since then but the load or, more correctly, lack of load problem still plagues.

Ted

The heat problem from resistors is exactly why I didn't want to use them. Also, from what I've been reading else where, load resistors simulate the load used by filament bulbs, thus negating one of the useful properties of LED's, which is less power consumption. If that's the case, I might as well stay with the filament bulbs.

I have tried swapping the rear turn signal lamps with LED's (same bulb as the reverse lights, just a different color) and they blink at the high rate. Unfortunately, it seems that if you want to go LED's for the turn signals, you'll need to go with load resistors.

I've heard the relay in the back clicking, but I figured it was for the factory trailer towing package I have. They often include an additional relay just to handle the trailer lamp load.

Maybe if you switched out the front and back bulbs at the same time with LED's, then it would work. I'm guessing that with the setup you had, since the front bulbs were drawing more power than the back LED's, it was the same as having a burned-out bulb. If both front and back were drawing the same power though, maybe it would be alright.

I'll be ordering some amber LED's in the next week or two, and trying them out. Hopefully (crossing fingers), it works out. Regardless of the outcome, I'll post my findings so that if anyone else in the future decides to go LED, they'll know what to expect.

 

[CX9 SportOwner]

(The heat problem from resistors is exactly why I didn't want to use them. Also, from what I've been reading else where, load resistors simulate the load used by filament bulbs, thus negating one of the useful properties of LED's, which is less power consumption. If that's the case, I might as well stay with the filament bulbs.)

Exactly

 

[oroboy]

Exactly

Kefe.

 

[SydneyGuy]

I'm not sure why you would be concerned with trying to lessen the turn signal light globe anyway. For almost 100% of the time they would be in use the battery is being charged by the alternator. If the headlights don't flatten the battery whilst the car is running then the turn signals definitely wont. Even if the car wasn't running the battery would be able to run those small globes for many many hours.

 

[oroboy]

I'm not sure why you would be concerned with trying to lessen the turn signal light globe anyway. For almost 100% of the time they would be in use the battery is being charged by the alternator. If the headlights don't flatten the battery whilst the car is running then the turn signals definitely wont. Even if the car wasn't running the battery would be able to run those small globes for many many hours.

Switching to LED's are more than just looks (which is also why I'm installing them); the benefits of LED's are not known by most people. For one thing, the life span of LED's is at least 3 times (30,000 hours) that of incandescent bulbs (of course, you probably don't need it to last that long, but it doesn't hurt either); the shock resistance is better because of the compact size, there is virtually no heat emitted as compared to incandescents, where only about 30% of the energy drawn by the bulb is converted to light while the rest is wasted as heat emission.

Sure the battery can power the filament turn signal bulbs all day without the car on, and the alternator will always be there to recharge the battery; the same goes with LED's as well. The difference comes with the lower energy consumption rate of LED's; with the less draw on the battery, the alternator doesn't have to work as hard, which translates to the vehicle using less gas to spin the alternator. We all know that the more gas we save can be beneficial in more ways than one. But to achieve these type of results, you have to change practically all of the bulbs on the car.

LED's are the future... in the next 5-10 years, all new cars will have LED's for their light sources. The Audi R8 & Lexus LS are the first cars to be put on the market with LED headlights.

 

[CX9 SportOwner]

There is no load difference on the engine. The engine turns the alternator the same regardless. The regulator adjusts the output based on what the load is, and dumps the rest as heat.

 

[oroboy]

There is no load difference on the engine. The engine turns the alternator the same regardless. The regulator adjusts the output based on what the load is, and dumps the rest as heat.

The engine does not turn the alternator the same regardless. That's why running your A/C all the time sucks gas faster.

The car's lighting system maybe insignificant compared to the A/C, but there is a load difference. The voltage regulator senses the charge condition of the battery and determines how much electricity must be produced to maintain the battery; when the lights are turned on, the extra energy draw on the battery is sensed by the VR, which in turns spins the alternator harder to make up for that energy loss from the battery; because of this process, there is a momentary drop in engine RPMs as the load on the alternator increases. The engine management system then adjusts the amount of fuel going into the injectors and the air flow to compensate for this additional load and bring the engine back to the set point speed.

This is why having LED's which draw less power (about 90% less than incandescent) translates to the overall engine not having to work harder. Now the fuel savings are neglegible when looking at it from a daily stand point, but longer-term (annually) is where the savings can be found; where you could probably save yourself a couple of gallons of gas... not that 2 or more gallons matters, but like I said before, it never hurts.

All I needed to know is if there was a relay that needs to be switched out if I replaced the turn signal lamps, where it's located on the vehicle, and if there is one available on the market. I don't believe I've come this far off topic... if you guys don't have an answer to help, stay out of the thread; I don't need questions as to why I'm doing this, or smart-ass replies. To those of you who have provided useful comments/replies I appreciate it and thank you for all of your help thus far.

 

[l-miwa]

No relay. Load resistors are your only option. Sorry...

 

[CX9 SportOwner]

WOW You almost made that sound like you know what you're talking about. A/C loads the engine because you are having to turn a COMPRESSOR, which has a lot more physical resistance. (Under hard acceleration, the computer actually disengages the compressor for maximum power)

The engine is going to turn at different speeds depending on car speed and gear you're in. An alternator is really nothing more than a rotor spinning in a stator to generate electron flow from an electromagnetic field. A diode array and regulator are added to convert the ac to dc and stabilize the output. At a given RPM, the engine will be turning the rotor inside the stator at the same speed regardless of the load.
Take a look.
It's driven by a belt.
Really

The engine does not turn the alternator the same regardless. That's why running your A/C all the time sucks gas faster.

The car's lighting system maybe insignificant compared to the A/C, but there is a load difference. The voltage regulator senses the charge condition of the battery and determines how much electricity must be produced to maintain the battery; when the lights are turned on, the extra energy draw on the battery is sensed by the VR, which in turns spins the alternator harder to make up for that energy loss from the battery; because of this process, there is a momentary drop in engine RPMs as the load on the alternator increases. The engine management system then adjusts the amount of fuel going into the injectors and the air flow to compensate for this additional load and bring the engine back to the set point speed.

This is why having LED's which draw less power (about 90% less than incandescent) translates to the overall engine not having to work harder. Now the fuel savings are neglegible when looking at it from a daily stand point, but longer-term (annually) is where the savings can be found; where you could probably save yourself a couple of gallons of gas... not that 2 or more gallons matters, but like I said before, it never hurts.

All I needed to know is if there was a relay that needs to be switched out if I replaced the turn signal lamps, where it's located on the vehicle, and if there is one available on the market. I don't believe I've come this far off topic... if you guys don't have an answer to help, stay out of the thread; I don't need questions as to why I'm doing this, or smart-ass replies. To those of you who have provided useful comments/replies I appreciate it and thank you for all of your help thus far.