Iraq Chaos Dims Bush's Vision of Democracy in Mideast

Killer

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2011 3 5 door
March 19 (Bloomberg) -- On a wintry night in 2003, as U.S. troops gathered on Iraq's borders for an imminent invasion, President George W. Bush described what the country and the Middle East would look like once Saddam Hussein was deposed.

``A liberated Iraq can show the power of freedom to transform that vital region, by bringing hope and progress into the lives of millions,'' Bush said Feb. 26, 2003, at a Washington dinner.

Iraq and its region have indeed been transformed by the U.S. invasion that began four years ago today and its aftermath -- but in ways far removed from what Bush envisioned.

While Hussein is gone, Iraq has descended into internecine conflict. Sectarian murders rose last year to 1,200 in December from 200 in January before declining early this year, according to a U.S. Defense Department report. More than 140,000 American troops remain engaged, and almost 3,200 have died.

``Our expectations of what American military power could do were wildly exaggerated,'' said Andrew Bacevich, a former Army colonel and U.S. Military Academy professor. ``We're not in control of events. We may be the most powerful nation in the world, but we don't have the ability to impose a solution on this problem.''

Thousands joined anti-war demonstrations yesterday in Washington, New York, Los Angeles and other U.S. cities ahead of the conflict's fourth anniversary.

A war waged to spread democracy has discredited it even among Arabs who chafe under the repressions of their own governments, according to Amr Shobaki, an analyst at Al-Ahram Center for Political and Strategic Studies in Cairo.

Options, Concerns

These activists survey the results of the U.S. campaign for democracy and see on the one hand Iraq's bloody instability and on the other electoral victories by Islamic fundamentalists, Shobaki said. ``The options seemed to be either chaos, like in Iraq, or Islamic groups rising to power, like with the Palestinians,'' he said.

In the past two years, Iraq has elected a Shiite-dominated government distrusted by Sunnis; Palestinians voted into power Hamas, a group condemned by the U.S. and Israel as terrorist; and Iranians elected as president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who has called for Israel's elimination.

In Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood, which opposes U.S. policy in the Middle East, emerged as the strongest opposition bloc after the 2005 parliamentary elections. The government responded by arresting scores of its members; Shobaki said the U.S. ``has been silent on the repression.''

Unemployment, Inflation

Iraq's economic problems have deepened since the March 20, 2003, invasion -- March 19 in Washington -- defying U.S. forecasts of quick recovery. Unemployment is estimated as high as 60 percent and inflation last year was 50 percent, according to the Pentagon report.

U.S. officials predicted shortly after the invasion that Iraqi oil production would rise by the end of 2003 to 3 million barrels a day from the pre-invasion level of 2.4 million; instead, it has sunk to 1.9 million barrels, according to Bloomberg estimates.

The Iraq output decline was a factor, along with rising global demand, in pushing up world oil prices, according to Adam Sieminski, chief energy economist for Deutsche Bank in New York. In the past four years, the production drop cost Iraq billions of dollars as global consumption drove crude past $50 a barrel.

In terms of the region's political balance, the biggest winner has been Iran, the U.S.'s staunchest adversary in the region, Middle East experts say. That rattles American partners such as Egypt and Saudi Arabia, who also are concerned that Iraq's Sunni-Shiite conflict may ripple into their countries.

Functioning Democracy

Bush administration officials, while acknowledging that success has proven elusive, said they haven't given up on creating a functioning democracy in Iraq.

``We see a democratic Iraq as the best path to a stable Iraq,'' said Brett McGurk, the National Security Council's director for the country.

McGurk said in an interview that any ``backsliding on a commitment to democracy would have serious consequences,'' particularly with Iraq's Shiite and Kurdish communities. If the new U.S.-Iraqi push to curb violence succeeds, today's stark sectarian divisions will ease, he said.

``Because of Iraq's history and because of the violence, you have seen an identity-based politics develop,'' McGurk said. ``What we hope for is that, as security takes hold and the political process matures, you will see more of an issue-based politics develop. There are signs of that happening already.''

Shift in Objectives

The Pentagon report, while saying the U.S. remains broadly committed to the goal of Iraqi democracy, concludes that a shift has taken place in at least short-term objectives.

The U.S. has given up for now on a search for an ``all- encompassing `national compact''' and is focusing on narrower goals, such as enactment of the long-promised law distributing oil revenue more equitably and holding new local elections, it said.

Bacevich sees a much broader strategic shift taking place. He said the administration's latest moves -- such as attending a recent regional conference that included Iran and Syria --amount to an implicit retreat from the goal of sweeping democratic transformation.

``All of those grand expectations no longer seem to figure in the administration's rhetoric,'' said Bacevich, now a Boston University international-relations professor. ``I would take that as evidence that tacitly the administration has scaled down its objectives, both in Iraq and more broadly in the region.''

http://news.yahoo.com/s/bloomberg/20070319/pl_bloomberg/afuoyef67xi4_1
 
Yeah no matter what your political or other beliefs, its hard to argue that $400 billion could have been spent on many more productive projects here in the US. Not one American life should have been wasted over there IMO.
 
everyone always talks of this giant deficit this administration has built up...

has anyone felt the effects of it? has anyones lifestyle changed as a result of this war?

are we rationing chocolate and metal and rubber? are car companies making bullets and planes? has everything in america been put on hold to fund this war?

has anyones life changed at all?

people need to stop looking at the bad, and look at the good

we need to finish what we started.

will it possibly cost more lives? unfortunately, yes, but those soldiers make that decision the minute they enlist. they know their lives are potentially on the line.
 
NCZ13 said:
everyone always talks of this giant deficit this administration has built up...
Which they have done. True statement.
has anyone felt the effects of it?
THE COUNTRY as a whole feels it.
has anyones lifestyle changed as a result of this war?

Probably about a million or more people across the world.
are we rationing chocolate and metal and rubber? are car companies making bullets and planes? has everything in america been put on hold to fund this war?
No, the deficit just get's worse.
has anyones life changed at all?
About 3200 Americans are dead and over 10 thousand injured. So I would say yes to that.
people need to stop looking at the bad, and look at the good

When the good outweighs the bad you can count on it.
we need to finish what we started.
I will say yes to this...but what exactly is "finished" to you?
will it possibly cost more lives? unfortunately, yes, but those soldiers make that decision the minute they enlist. they know their lives are potentially on the line.
Agreed.
 
DeadGeneration said:
3,200 dead is such a SMALL number omg you have no idea

Any single death of a soldier is a terrible thing, but yes put in perspective the casualties sufferered in this conflict are tiny compared to the massive loss of live in some of the other conflicts we have faced.

But thats to the mainstream medias incessant cauterwauling and daily breathless reporting of troop deaths and car bombings and a steady diet of ONLY negative news out of Iraq, a lot of Americans have become jaded!
 
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NCZ13 said:
everyone always talks of this giant deficit this administration has built up...

has anyone felt the effects of it? has anyones lifestyle changed as a result of this war?

are we rationing chocolate and metal and rubber? are car companies making bullets and planes? has everything in america been put on hold to fund this war?

has anyones life changed at all?

people need to stop looking at the bad, and look at the good

we need to finish what we started.

will it possibly cost more lives? unfortunately, yes, but those soldiers make that decision the minute they enlist. they know their lives are potentially on the line.

Haven't you heard man, we are living in soup line America! The poor are getting poorer, the rich are getting richer, we will ALL forclose on our mortgages tomorrow, every single soldier in Iraq wants out, there is not a single shool, or business opening in Iraq today or a single Iraqi who supports our troops (or for that matter American) and daily life in Iraq consists on car bombs and IED's going off every hour on the hour, Valerie Plame is a covert deskjock....I mean agent, Libby, Rove, Gonzalez, Cheney and Haliburton rule the world, and we're all going to die in a killer hurricane caused by global warming on wednesday ............ at least that what you'll gather if you watch the mainstream media.

Good or Positive or uplifting news? Whats that? If it bleeds, it leads!
 
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1killercls said:
I will say yes to this...but what exactly is "finished" to you?

When the Iraqi Govt. and its security forces and army can take control of the country and police it themselves while providing adequate protection to the populace and when Iraq can have a somewhat stable relationship with its neighbors. Then our job is done and our valiant, hardworking, tireless and brave (volunteer) army can return home knowing that it gave the Iraqi people a shot at a better life and helped stand up a democracy (albeit one not identical to our own) that will hopefully be in ally in the fight against extremism and terror.

Thats what finished is to me.

But all this won't change the mind of those who believe that Bush is evil and this war is pointless. So lets just do this:

The defeatists can just keep hoping for an American defeat and that Iraq tumbles into chaos and we pull out tomorrow, while those with some optimisim and belief in out troops and the American people can keep hoping and praying we get this job done and get our troops home ASAP.

I'm not calling anyone out or attacking anyones patriotism, everyone has a right to their own beliefs, I'm just wondering what message we could send to the terrorists and to the world if we stood united with one strong conviction and said your idealogy of terror, murder, hatred and violence is powerless over us and we will not give you on iota of satisfaction instead of continually trying to capitulate and appease them.

Sidenote: I'm going to make a commitment to visit the local veterans hospital or the closest one to where I live and just thank those guys for their sacrifice and dedication. I'm just felt compelled to do this and am kind of ticked at myself for not having gone yet. I don't know if some of you guys do this already or not but if you get the chance, I humbly suggest you try to do the same.
 
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Donas64 said:
When the Iraqi Govt. and its security forces and army can take control of the country and police it themselves while providing adequate protection to the populace and when Iraq can have a somewhat stable relationship with its neighbors. Then our job is done and our valiant, hardworking, tireless and brave (volunteer) army can return home knowing that it gave the Iraqi people a shot at a better life and helped stand up a democracy (albeit one not identical to our own) that will hopefully be in ally in the fight against extremism and terror.

Never happen...at least as a democracy it wont. And I am not a defeatist...I am a realist.
 
here is a realist view of the iraq war.

the iraq war, designed to reduce terrorism by establishing a stable democracy and causing a "domino effect," has in fact been counterproductive to america's interests. speaking strictly in terms of american interest, the best short-term solution for middle eastern governments is to install brutal dictators who answer to america. on the eve of the iraq war, saddam hussein's country was probably the LEAST hospitable to subnatinal extremists, out of all of the middle eastern countries.

- saudi arabia contains extremist islamic schools which teach the same far-right fundamentalism that terrorists favor

- pakistan's intelligence agency, the ISI, has known connections to terrorists, including the Taliban. pakistan's government has a tenuous control on its military, which is extremely dangerous in a country that has nuclear weapons technology. A.Q. Khan, a pakistani scientist, sold nuclear technology to other countries hostile to the US.

- iran also has a tenuous control on its military. iran is a known supporter of external terrorist groups including hezbollah.

- syria, lebanon, and jordan all contain known, active terrorist groups because their leaders to not have a firm grip on the entire country.


as for iraq? it was the only country where the leader had a firm grip, and was actively opposed to subnational extremists within his country. terrorist groups flourish when they are allowed to operate autonomously within their countries and build up their infrastructure (this is how al qaeda flourished under the taliban). saddam hussein, under pressure frmo UN sanctions and with a devastated military after the gulf war, likely did not have WMD or the near-term capability to develop them. any claim that anyone in the media or any political activist makes concerning WMD in iraq is pure speculation.

think of the Cold War, when america supported brutal dictators in south america for the purpose of preventing popular socialist regimes from emerging.

furthermore, the war in afghanistan was by no means complete, and is still not complete, on the eve of the iraq war. the pashtun tribal territory, on the border of pakistan and afghanistan, is STILL a breeding ground for terrirsts and is probably where OSAMA BIN LADEN LIVES! the pakistani government actively prevents the pashtun territory from becoming consolidated because if it did, it would pose a threat to pakistan!


now, what does all this say about what we should do here and now in iraq? as long as we stay in iraq, it will remain the "cause celebre" (as termed by the 2006 National Intelligence Estimate) for terrorists worldwide. to disband the iraqi occupation, and instead devote our resources to behind-the-scenes, covert counterterrorism operations is a more productive short-term solution for the war on terror. it is a given that america's reputation is sullied in the middle east (long before 9/11 this was true), so any obvious presence we maintain there will be counterproductive.

the REAL solution to cutting at terrorism from its source is to end american (and Western) oppressin of the middle east. the fact that israel does not allow a palestinian state is the number one grievance that terrorists have with america. furthermore america is the ONLY country capable of FORCING israel to capitulate with the palestinians. wars of forced democracy DO NOT WORK. america cannot socially engineer foreign countries - democracy requires a multitude of favorable conditions in order for it to flourish (including, but not limited to, economic prosperity, popular support of governmental institutions, popular participatin, etc). democracy is conditional upon a certain degree of economic and civil development which is not present in any middle eastern country, save perhaps iran.


what i can definitely say is that the iraq war was a poor decision to begin with. but that is a rehashed point. any american-supported government, or active american occupation, will be undermined by the terrorists. my best solution is either to immediately install a dictator and leave, or immediately install a federal government divided between the kurds, shi'ites, and sunnis, and then leave. the cost associated with the continued presence of an obvious american occupation outweighs the cost associated with pulling out.
 
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1killercls said:
Never happen...at least as a democracy it wont. And I am not a defeatist...I am a realist.

I don't think you're a defeatist, but I do think that there are people who don't just think we will lose, but want us to lose. It sounds crazy I know but I believe that they are out there (peep)

I know that there are those who genuinely think that our situation in Iraq is hopeless, and they have their reasons for feeling that way.

But there are others who want us to lose so we learn a lesson. So America is humbled and taken down a peg. I think as a whole that we are just as humble and level headed or prideful as any other nation.

Go to France or Spain and see if they don't have national pride and if they are shy about showing it. Its only ugly and conceited when we have national pride. Those are the people who genuinely want us to feel the sting of defeat in Iraq.
 
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Donas64 said:
I do think that there are people who don't just think we will lose, but want us to lose. It sounds crazy I know but I believe that they are out there (peep)

Your not crazy because it's the truth, but if your gov't learns to play nicely and get it's head out of it's ass than that unfortunate situation can hopefully be avoided.

Donas64 said:
I know that there are those who genuinely think that our situation in Iraq is hopeless.

In relation to the previous statement, it does have a reminiscent smell of Vietnam, and anyone who doesn't see this has blinders on. I agree that Sadaam needed to be removed from power, it's how it was gone about getting it done that society as a whole has the problem with..most definitely could have been handled better had hot headedness and pride been swolled.

Donas64 said:
But there are others who want us to lose so we learn a lesson. So America is humbled and taken down a peg. I think as a whole that we are just as humble and level headed or prideful as any other nation.

Go to France or Spain and see if they don't have national pride and if they are shy about showing it. Its only ugly and conceited when we have national pride. Those are the people who genuinely want us to feel the sting of defeat in Iraq.

Right and right, no one disputes the fact that you have an abundance of national pride, however...displaying it with respect to other people or nations is where you're gov't needs some fine tuning...the I'm more powerful, have more money, so what I say goes end of discussion mentality needs some readjustment!
 
Purrfectangel said:
the I'm more powerful, have more money, so what I say goes end of discussion mentality needs some readjustment!

But the thing is I don't see America acting that way. We're always bending over backwards to get permission for this and legislation and sanctions for that. We did not enter Iraq unilateraly. Sure we were the biggest force there but we're usually the biggest force most places.

Afghanistan
Albania
Angola
Australia (These guys will not be intimidated by scare tactics God bless em! Plus they gave us the Awesome GTO and soon the G8 GTP :) (headbang) )
Azerbaijan
Bulgaria
Colombia
Czech Republic
Denmark
Dominican Republic
El Salvador
Eritrea
Estonia
Ethiopia
Georgia
Honduras
Hungary
Iceland
Italy
Japan
Kuwait
Latvia
Lithuania
Macedonia
Marshall Islands
Micronesia
Mongolia
Netherlands
Nicaragua
Palau
Panama
Philippines
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Rwanda
Singapore
Slovakia
Solomon Islands
South Korea
Spain (Terrorists scared them off)
Tonga
Turkey
Uganda
Ukraine
United Kingdom (Tony Blair while under heavy attack is still a staunch ally)
United States
Uzbekistan

Those are all the countries in one way or another who support (or supported) the actions we took in Iraq, as well as the united Nations due to the fact that it was their very warnings and resolutions that Sadaam failed to heed.

Look, things have gone far from well but to say that we acted alone is not entirely true at all. On the flipside, sometimes you do have to act alone. Those are the responsibilities that come with being a superpower.
 
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