installed single runner intake manifold on my mp5!

[P5inder]

Undoubtedly, the complex, multi-runner manifold was used for the purpose of improved fuel economy and improved emissions.

The 2001 and up Neons (commenting because I had one) have a (plastic) single runner intake manifold, whereas the R/T version has an aluminium, dual runner set-up like the US Protege FSDE, except that the secondary runners on the R/Ts' are huge; so huge in fact ,that its been proven that a stock second gen R/T manifold will out-flow an aluminium, ported and polished single runner manifold from the first generation Neons (which do work on the second genners).

I've been looking at our cars' manifold and the runners are positively tiny and nearly pointless. The single runner manifold on the Neons gave great low-end grunt (80% of 130 lb/tq by 2000 RPM), not unlike our cars.

N E way, what I'm trying to say is that emissions aside, a single runner manifold works just fine. Improved flow at all RPM's will mean not only better performance numbers but also an easier way to improve upon those numbers. Simpler to get this improved flow from a manifold used on other Mazda cars with the same engine.

Jamesk, thanks for your work and in essence, vote of confidence. I've been eyeing this manifold for my ride for a while now. Only reason I haven't gotten it yet is $$ issues and I as also worried about how to retro-fit it since the PCM would be looking change in flow created by the VCTS and its resulting reaction.

Did your manifold come with a kit? Have you had to do anything else? Problem with a vacuum line right? Can you take a photo and help me out? Thanks!

Oh,one last thing...is it already ported/polished?

 

[MazdaSpeeder]

I'm growing more convinced by the day on this...does anyone know what year(s) 626 I can pull a mani off of? I would still love to see some before/after dyno numbers...

 

[jamesk]

P5inder- it only came with the manifold, gaskets and egr pipe. the only thing different is it is missing a vacuum line. you have to t into it so you can get your cruise control working. im going to take pictures right now and ill have them up in this thread asap. sorry for the delay guys, i promise ill get them up fast.

THEMAN- im sorry maybe you didnt read my post in the first page. THIS MOD IS DOES NOT DO s*** WITHOUT THE SUPPORTING MODS. THERE IS TOO MUCH AIRFLOW COMMING INTO THE ENGINE THAT THE ENGINE ACTUALLY PUTS OUT. WHEN YOU GET THE SUPPORTING MODS OR A TURBO, THE GAINS FINALLY SHOW. OMG!!!!!!

 

[CustomMSP]

i would love to dyno my car, but idk any place around here? does anybody know a place near 07722? i live in central jersey

Go to http://phillydynoworks.com/, they're very good. It's a drive, but it's well worth it. Their prices are excellent as well.

 

[dwpeek]

jamesk: in your mods i see you have an intake manifold thermal spacer and a throttle body coolant bypass. What are the advantages to these mods and where can I view them?

 

[MakeMeGoFast]

Intake manifold thermal spacer acts as a insulator preventing heat soak. basically keeps the IM cooler. The same with the throttle body coolant bypass. basically coolant is pumped to the throttle to warm it up/ this mod stops this. Not good when you are trying to get cold air to the engine.

IM spacers

 

[jamesk]

jamesk: in your mods i see you have an intake manifold thermal spacer and a throttle body coolant bypass. What are the advantages to these mods and where can I view them?

yea its what he said, to cool everything down. ill take a picture of them as well.

 

[TheMAN]

Undoubtedly, the complex, multi-runner manifold was used for the purpose of improved fuel economy and improved emissions.

The 2001 and up Neons (commenting because I had one) have a (plastic) single runner intake manifold, whereas the R/T version has an aluminium, dual runner set-up like the US Protege FSDE, except that the secondary runners on the R/Ts' are huge; so huge in fact ,that its been proven that a stock second gen R/T manifold will out-flow an aluminium, ported and polished single runner manifold from the first generation Neons (which do work on the second genners).

I've been looking at our cars' manifold and the runners are positively tiny and nearly pointless. The single runner manifold on the Neons gave great low-end grunt (80% of 130 lb/tq by 2000 RPM), not unlike our cars.

N E way, what I'm trying to say is that emissions aside, a single runner manifold works just fine. Improved flow at all RPM's will mean not only better performance numbers but also an easier way to improve upon those numbers. Simpler to get this improved flow from a manifold used on other Mazda cars with the same engine.

Jamesk, thanks for your work and in essence, vote of confidence. I've been eyeing this manifold for my ride for a while now. Only reason I haven't gotten it yet is $$ issues and I as also worried about how to retro-fit it since the PCM would be looking change in flow created by the VCTS and its resulting reaction.

Did your manifold come with a kit? Have you had to do anything else? Problem with a vacuum line right? Can you take a photo and help me out? Thanks!

Oh,one last thing...is it already ported/polished?

the "dual runner" intake manifold is designed for the purpose of better high rpm power demanded under "sporty" driving with the compromise of maintaining low rpm power/torque, otherwise a cheaper single runner manifold optimized for specific rpm will be used... short, LARGE runners typically are good for high rpm flow but is s*** for low rpms... this is what you typically see in a race car... long, narrow runners are typically what you see on a street engine... the 626 intake manifold is this typical setup.... the compromise to have the best of both of these is the dual runner setup either by truely utilizing 2 different runners inside the intake manifold or to use the helmholtz resonance effect... the former being used in the mazda BP engines, and the latter in the mazda FP/FS engines... runner size requirements also changes as you go into a multi runner manifold compared to a simple single stage intake... this is evident with mazda's complex VRIS system employed in their V6 engines designed in the 90s

the function of the FP-DE/FS-DE's VICS intake is explained in the 99 protege service highlights manual... it shows a graph that top end power is better with the VICS system than without it.... it also shows a simple diagram of the air pressure waves been forced into the "dead end holes" (that we've seen from pics of the disassembled intakes) and deflected back into the runners to further promote intake flow... the FS-ZE's intake furthers this technology by adding an external resonator onto the intake manifold which improves extreme low and extreme high rpm flow... another effect of the strange workings of helmholtz resonance... it all works and a good explanation of the dynamics of this intake setup can be found by reading up on mazda's VRIS system... essentially, the FS-ZE's intake is a cheaped down version of a VRIS setup while the FS-DE's s*** is an even cheaper not-so-high performance version of that

like I said, the 626 intake is tuned for better low end torque and cannot flow as well as the stock protege intake (with VTCS removed as the engine was originally designed to be used without it) at high rpm... neither intake is really better or worse in emissions or fuel economy.. if anything, the 626 one might have better fuel economy around town but not quite as much on the highway due to the torque curve differences between both the intakes

interestingly, both the 00-02 626 head and cams are the same as the 01-03 proteges (turbo or not)... the intake cam in these engines first appeared in 2000 for the USDM 626s only and later used on the protege.... this cam has a higher lift than the ones used previously in the 626 but the duration has not changed as it was intended to keep clean emissions while optimized for proper performance with the 626's intake manifold.... this cam was never used outside of north america, and all "high power" versions of the FS-DEs across the world uses the better so-called "JDM" or "FS-ZE" intake cam... people from australia and europe with proteges have confirmed they have this cam as well as having VICS intake manifolds (they don't have VTCS either).... what's also interesting is, you hardly hear anyone from there complaining about their intake manifolds!

so what do you think the problem with our VICS is? back up to what I just said: "this cam has a higher lift than the ones used previously in the 626 but the duration has not changed as it was intended to keep clean emissions while optimized for proper performance with the 626's intake manifold"
it seems like the 626 intake works "better" because it appears to match up better with the stock USDM intake cam... how much you want to bet it won't work so good when you put in the better intake cam to make VICS really work as intended? I theorized that for some time now that our stock intake manifolds was really tuned to work efficiently with the "JDM" intake cam

NA tuning gets really complicated as parts matching really comes into play... using the wrong cam or bad head or bad exhaust while you have a badass intake can really throw everything off!


so before all of you dismiss VICS as bad, you all need to stfu and look at this:

 

[jamesk]

in theory, you are right. but its not the case in real life. you do not use much low end as your saying you would.

 

[TheMAN]

P5inder- it only came with the manifold, gaskets and egr pipe. the only thing different is it is missing a vacuum line. you have to t into it so you can get your cruise control working. im going to take pictures right now and ill have them up in this thread asap. sorry for the delay guys, i promise ill get them up fast.

THEMAN- im sorry maybe you didnt read my post in the first page. THIS MOD IS DOES NOT DO s*** WITHOUT THE SUPPORTING MODS. THERE IS TOO MUCH AIRFLOW COMMING INTO THE ENGINE THAT THE ENGINE ACTUALLY PUTS OUT. WHEN YOU GET THE SUPPORTING MODS OR A TURBO, THE GAINS FINALLY SHOW. OMG!!!!!!

what too much airflow? go dyno your car and we'll talk more

you want to talk about too much airflow and running into the rev limiter as the engine still is making power? try FS-ZE intake cam, mazdaspeed exhaust cam, FS-ZE intake manifold, autoexe throttle body, autoexe ram air intake, and a racing beat catback, stock FS-ZE spark plugs (extended reach, heat range 6)... NO headers, STOCK ECU

and it pings once the engine has been heat soaked in traffic... I'm at the limits of the stock ECU and have to run a J&S to keep things under control
no, I don't have money on an EMS right now and no, I don't want headers as I'm trying to stay "legal"... and no, I don't have a recent dyno but I will see about getting another one soon

 

[TheMAN]

in theory, you are right. but its not the case in real life. you do not use much low end as your saying you would.

putting around town below 50mph, you use much of the low end rpm power of our cars... with a proper setup, you can efficiently still have power at 1500rpm (like I do despite all the s*** I have)
on the highway, due to gearing, you go past the 626's torque peak as you reach 70mph... at 80, you're closer to the torque peak of the protege's
I still say the VICS system is more efficient when properly used

 

[Captain KRM P5]

we've dynoed the manifold on an N/A protege. it showed 5 to 6 whp over the stock manifold. i don't give a hoot what the 626 did six or seven years ago - the manifold works, its dyno proven on N/A and turbo cars and its been flow tested against the stock Protege manifold. it flows 30 to 40 CFM more than the stock manifold did and yes all the flaps were open. it really amuses/annoys me to see the select few die hards out there trash this manifold and say it doesn't work or doesn't work well when its been proven time and again to be a viable solution. we've installed them on numerous MSPs and even on stock cars the difference is night and day. the midrange and top end difference in the powerband is substantial, especially on turbo cars.

yes, when the car is cold or just fired up you may get a low or sluggish idle. yes, you could fabricate a totally different manifold out of sheetmetal and likely see better gains. if you want to spend thousands to go that route on a one off component, then by all means do so. but for the price and the simplicity, the 626 manifold is a comparitively hard part to beat. no FMIC kit will give you the same out of the box gain. no cold air intake will give you the same out of the box gain. and there is no hard data proven alternative to it. will there be? maybe, but not for anywhere near the same amount of money.

if you don't want to put it on your car, then don't. but trashing someone for doing it or trying to say it simply doesn't work is a bag of s***.

end rant

 

[TheMAN]

flow is not just flow when you're dealing with the stock intake manifold
like I said, it makes use of helmholtz resonance and it's something that has to be calculated then tested on an actual engine... engines do not have a constant flow like a flow bench does... it has pulses through the firing cycles... each of those cycles have pressure waves as the valves open and closes (which is why headers are the way they are to optimize scavenging flow)... the stock intake manifold makes use of those pressure waves to increase flow.... a natural supercharging effect
like I said, I really think that the stock intake cam causes with the stock intake manifold stave of air... when the proper "JDM" cam is used, the optimal performance is restored

the last time I checked, the cam is cheaper than the intake although installation is more involving

we can keep on arguing all day long but without dynos, there's no end to this argument

 

[MakeMeGoFast]

you all need to stfu and look at this

Like you said its about parts matching. And he doesnt have the FSZE intake cam.. So..........guesse what.

 

[MakeMeGoFast]

we've dynoed the manifold on an N/A protege. it showed 5 to 6 whp over the stock manifold.......

Where on the powerband? If you dont mind me asking

 

[Captain KRM P5]

Where on the powerband? If you dont mind me asking

i'll have the pull the chart and scan it at some point, we did it more than a year ago now.

 

[MakeMeGoFast]

yeah this seems to be the big mystery to everyone. I was just wondering if it was across the entire pband or just the top end like everyone says.

 

[Captain KRM P5]

its mid to top. you aren't going to see, in my experience, low end gains.

 

[MakeMeGoFast]

Well thats what I figured. thanks

 

[dwpeek]

If I'm not mistaken, the guy who started this thread also had a differant fly wheel. So it would only make sense that changing a manifold that takes away from your low end, ie: (the single runner intake) and adding the lighter fly wheel it should come to reason that the car would accelerate faster and have better mid-range and top-end, right? Yes, apparently this guy has done it, however I really would like to see the numbers on that mod setup.