I Wanna buy + build an FC~ HELP new to scene

[RCThrine]

So, Ive always wanted a rotory and now ive finally gotten the means~ my dad said i can finally sell his mustang~ since hes lost the budget to finish it, and i figure i can get about 12k for it since its pretty rare one yada yada...

What im thinking of doing is buying an FC and dropping in a 13bt from the FDs and slapping a bigger turbo on it... What im shooting for is a 300+/- whp and i know its not realistic but 220ft/lbs~ Ne1 know a build setup that i should consider... I want to build the FC not just have a shooting brick, so some of the moneys going into coilovers, some into big brakes, shortshifter, pulled fronts and widebody rearend, etc... I want a balanced car...

Im located in Alhambra CA so if ne of you have shops or shops you'd recommend within 20 mins of a one way drive from here let me know.

btw, i originally dreamed of a 20b but after seeing numbers those guys are putting down for the dollar, ive swayed over to the bigger turbo idea~ Since im not shooting for some outrageous number I think itd be safer and more reliable to do the FD swap... but im open to suggestions~ like the thread says... im new to the scene...

Catch me up-
Rob

 

[smo0f]

i thought the FDs had a 20b engine

EDIT: er nm. I had a 84 GSL-SE, but was still and still am a newb.

 

[melicha8]

13b(tt) will not fit under the hood without modifications. It's best to just opt for the single turbo. With 3mm apex seals you wouldn't have trouble getting those numbers

 

[Signal 2]

http://fc3spro.com/TECH/SWAP/FD3S/rew.html

 

[RCThrine]

What is the Cosmo Engine spoken of in the link Signal gave me? is it an aftermarket rotary manufacturer? Only time ive read Cosmo is on 3 rotors...

 

[PRO 5]

What is the Cosmo Engine spoken of in the link Signal gave me? is it an aftermarket rotary manufacturer? Only time ive read Cosmo is on 3 rotors...

The engine in the Cosmo is the 20b. That's the engine with 3 rotors. So when they say the Cosmo engine they are refering to the 20b.

Dave

 

[ozmojo1]

Actually according to that site posted and others i have found the cosmo came with a 13b and a 20b. "The Cosmo offers their own variation on a 2-rotor, sequential twin-turbo 13B; with Cosmo engine mounts being offered to make this conversion a drop-in affair, I would normally recommend going with the Cosmo engine swap."

they are talking about how the 13b from the cosmo would be easier than the 13b from a FD.

i could be wrong tho....i always thought the 20b was synonymous with the "cosmo"

 

[dDuB]

You can make 300rwhp on the stock 13bt the 2nd gen TII comes with, why do you want to get a 13btt (FD engine) instead? You'll be spending a lot of unneeded money when your goal is only 300rwhp, and that's pretty easy.

 

[RCThrine]

I really want to make sure that after i complete the build im running as reliable a setup as possible. I really want a rotory but every owner i know in real life says that they are money pits, that never amount to what you should be getting for all the labor. FD owners have not said that, infact the 2 ive spoken to say that the FD is all the rotory they had hoped for when buying the cars. Is there a build quality difference, maybe different alloys in block construstion, etc... Like i said im not going to claim to know half as much as you guys. But i would like to build a project for as few bucks as possible that runs fantastic and carves like its on rails.

T2s go for like 3k online, unless im lookin in the wrong spots, and a blown NA can be picked up for like 4-500 bux, so why buy the T2 when i can drop in the FD~ or now the Cosmo 13bt and have a rebuilt and what should be more solid lump to work off of. If its only 1500 bux more for the seamingly solid choice. Maybe im looking at it wrong. Mechanics~ where you at?

 

[dDuB]

I really want to make sure that after i complete the build im running as reliable a setup as possible. I really want a rotory but every owner i know in real life says that they are money pits, that never amount to what you should be getting for all the labor. FD owners have not said that, infact the 2 ive spoken to say that the FD is all the rotory they had hoped for when buying the cars. Is there a build quality difference, maybe different alloys in block construstion, etc... Like i said im not going to claim to know half as much as you guys. But i would like to build a project for as few bucks as possible that runs fantastic and carves like its on rails.

T2s go for like 3k online, unless im lookin in the wrong spots, and a blown NA can be picked up for like 4-500 bux, so why buy the T2 when i can drop in the FD~ or now the Cosmo 13bt and have a rebuilt and what should be more solid lump to work off of. If its only 1500 bux more for the seamingly solid choice. Maybe im looking at it wrong. Mechanics~ where you at?

You can buy the blown n/a and drop the TII stuff in it as well....

The FD engines are NO different in construction than S5 FC's. Materials used were the same, reinforcement was the same, etc. Only difference is the oil system parts (regulator/pump) and the port size. The FD comes with larger ports stock than the s5 TII, BUT the s5 TII can be ported to the same size easily during a rebuild.

FD engines are reliable IF you do supporting mods. But guess what? Same goes for FC turbo engines. Nothing will be reliable if you don't do supporting mods and take care of it. Or it will be amazingly reliable if you do them AND take care of it.

And where are you getting 1500 bucks from? Maybe for the engine itself... then factor in you need custom mounts to mount it in an FC, and you'll need the drivetrain to back it up, but same goes for dropping a TII engine into the n/a body of course, FD engines/parts are more expensive, you will have to customize more stuff with the FD engine, etc. Buy a blown n/a, buy a core motor/tranny for cheaper than the FD, rebuild and port it for cheaper than the FD generally since shops jack prices up on the FD just because they can, drop it in without ANY modification on the FC, put in the drivetrain, manifolds, wiring, lines, etc and you're done.

Ever done research on the average life span of FD engines? More FD owners have bad compression and are required to rebuild after 90-100k. How about an FC engine? Turbo ones are around 130-150k on average. Obviously there are exceptions to both, but when you are buying a used car and/or engine you will not know its history and how well it was taken care of.

 

[KatakanaKarl]

Listen to dDub. He is very wise.

Truthfully, putting an FD engine (13B-REW) would be very difficult, and VERY expensive. Swapping a Turbo FC engine in would be a lot easier, as the engine mounts are the same, and the engine was originally designed to fit in the chassis.

A 13B-T engine out of a Turbo FC can be had for less than $800 with a transmission from many J-Spec importers. If you're in it for reliability, you'd probably want to rebuild the engine (a lot easier than it sounds) before putting it in your car. A rebuild will run you between $500 and $1000 if you do it like most folks, and more if you need to replace rotors or housings.

Kevin at Rotary Resurrection has a great write up on the parts you need for a 13B-T swap in an FC. It's under the tech shop, under N/A to TII conversion.

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/

 

[RCThrine]

Big thanks to you guys for taking the time to help me get the ball rolling, ill be shopping for a T2 and just set aside the coin for a rebuild + port to go along with the 3mm seals and a frontmount~

NE1 got ne recs on best bang for the buck turbo setup with adjustable boost controllers?

 

[KatakanaKarl]

NE1 got ne recs on best bang for the buck turbo setup with adjustable boost controllers?

With a 13B-T engine, you can make a pretty awesome amount of power with very little invetment.

The biggest thing will be a free-flowing exhaust around 80mm. No cats means more boost. Racing Beat and Corksport are popular brands. The RB one will be a lot quieter, but with a beefy sound, and the Corksport is light on $$$, but will be loud as hell.

You are going to want to port the integrated wastegate on your turbo. With that much flow, you are going to get boost creep. You hit 10psi, then it'll start to slowly rise, until it gets to a point where your engine goes pop. You really need to get that thing up to size pronto.

http://www.fc3spro.com has a write up on wastegate porting here:
http://www.fc3spro.com/TECH/MODS/TURBO/wgp.htm

A good rule of thumb for making more power is to make sure you have enough fuel to keep up with your boost (not enough fuel + too much boost = blown engine).

With that exhaust, you'll hit fuel cut. A simple fix for that would be a Fuel-Cut Defender, which'll plug right up to your stock ECU. That way, your car won't hit fuel cut at like 8 psi, letting you go up to around 10. Most FCD's can be had for around $100, and they are a sound investment. You'll also need an aftermarket boost gauge, as this will mess up the ECU's boost readings.

Another thing that you'll need with this setup would be a new fuel pump. The stock one won't be able to help too much, so a better one like a Walboro 255 will help you get the fuel to the engine.

With an engine like that, you'd also be better off getting a decent Koyo or Fluidyne radiator and some Redline Water Wetter to help keep your engine cooled. If you can't remember to let your car sit before you turn it off, a turbo timer might also be helpful.

With all this good stuff, you should be able to make around 50 additional HP over stock. As far as bang for your buck goes, you could have all that for around $700 if you shopped around first. It's not the most stable setup, and you could do more with a chipped ECU like an RTek (that'll let you run 720cc injectors, and has the FCD built in), or a standalone ECU, but it's a good place to start.

Also, a word on the 3mm seals.

Most builders of rotaries engines (such as the famed RE Amemiya in Japan) don't use 3mm seals. They use the regular 2mm seals.

2mm seals actually seal better, and since the rotors are set up for them from the factory, you don't have to get them clearanced, which will basically force you to use 3mm seals from then on.

What they are is a band-aid for poor tuning. If you have your car tuned properly, you can run 2mm seals in aplications upwards to 500HP without worry. If your car is tuned badly, they might help for a bit, but they are eventually going to break under detonation, and then they're going to scar your rotors/housings up just as bad as 2mm seals, if not worse because they are larger.

That being said, if you still have your heart set 3mm seals, I'd say go with the Rotary Aviation 3mm seals. Kevin a Rotary Resurrection says he's had goo luck with them, and they are advertised as being 7 times harder than Mazda OEM seals. If there is a seal that could be slightly more resistant to pre-ignition, that would be the one.

 

[FC3Cturbo]

I was gonna post some intel but then seeing dDub from rx7club and Karl posting I find no need to

 

['87 Turbo II]

ok a 13bt REW (FD engine) will NOT fit in the FC. A 20b 3 rotor engine from the J-spec cosmo is the most compatible engine swap. If you rebuild the FC 13bt engine and streetport it, you will get satisfying resulsts, new turbo and yadda yadda. With a budget like that you can get an FC (Turbo II) for about $2500 (really clean) rebuild and have one mean 320 hp car with the right mods. (that would be around 9k with price of car included)

 

['87 Turbo II]

You can buy the blown n/a and drop the TII stuff in it as well....

The FD engines are NO different in construction than S5 FC's. Materials used were the same, reinforcement was the same, etc. Only difference is the oil system parts (regulator/pump) and the port size. The FD comes with larger ports stock than the s5 TII, BUT the s5 TII can be ported to the same size easily during a rebuild.

FD engines are reliable IF you do supporting mods. But guess what? Same goes for FC turbo engines. Nothing will be reliable if you don't do supporting mods and take care of it. Or it will be amazingly reliable if you do them AND take care of it.

A couple of things.
1) FD is not "exactly the same" in fact they are way different. Yes they are both 13bs but their construction is very different. Motor mounts, ECU, wiring, oil system, colling system, and piping (I know that can be changed) are way different. The swap can be done but with heavy modifying and a Mod from Rx7club.com (Icemark) answered in FAQs that a 20b cosmo engine swap is cheaper (still around $10k)
2) Some FD owners engine swap to FC rotaries because FDs are less reliable. Alot of FDs get rebuilt pre 80k miles (I do not know how the owners cared for the engines but for $30k in 93, I'd BABY that car). FCs (turbo) around 130k if taken well care of.

 

[KatakanaKarl]

I think dDub was refering to the internals of the 13B-REW. Compared to a Cosmo 13B-RE or an FC 13B-T, they are practically the same. As far as the external accessories go, yes, they are very different.

 

[SkinnyJoint]

ok time out for a noob
13b-rew = fd?
13bt-rew = fd turbo?
if this is tru i thought the fds were twin so wouldnt it be 13btt-rew?

13b-t = trubo fc?
13b = na fc?

t2 = turbo2 = fc turbo = 13b-tf


can someone correct mistakes and or tell me if i got it right?

 

[smo0f]

13b was also fb, gsl-se, otherwise 12a for the carburated models

 

[SkinnyJoint]

13b was also fb, gsl-se, otherwise 12a for the carburated models

great thanks for more confusing info..... 12a's were in the sa's? and they were carbd?
are the 13bt's carbed? what is gsl-se?