Hoosiers A3S05 = not so good

[xelderx]

I'll have pictures up as soon as I can dig the camera out of my luggage.

I've had 225/45-15 A3S05's on the front of my car for 4 events now. The 1st event felt OK, but I hadn't quite gotten used to them yet. They absolutely owned everything at the second event. I missed FTD by .18 seconds. The 3rd event was a two day AutoX on really sticky concrete and I would have had fastest time street prepared by over half a second, but I DNF'ed my fastest run by hitting the finish line cone. There was a pretty sharp right hander going into the finish and I just couldn't get the car to turn that corner. Being a 2 day event I had a few more runs to get it right, but the car got worse and worse. It was starting to understeer so bad that I could have probably done some of the faster corners better on my Azenis. Which now brings us to this weekend. My first run felt ok, but the tires weren't up to temp yet, I was the first car on course so I had all the grit and marbles in the racing line and I was taking it easy to get a better view of the course. I was ready to blast my second run since it seemed like the Hoosiers always got worse as the day went on. My second run sucked horribly. The car was understeering everywhere. I couldn't even get it to hook throwing in a little left foot braking, which I never have to do since I set my car up a little loose anyway. I checked the tires when I came in and my fronts were showing cords on the outside edge about an inch from the sidewall. I run -3 degrees of camber up front so there should be no reason for extreme outside wear and I never had any problems with them rolling over too far. I rotated the tires just so I could make a few more runs which put the 225's on the back and the 205's up front. Extremely, savagely, uncontrolably loose doesn't even begin to describe it. The wider tire had absolutely no effect on keeping the back end planted. The simple fact is the A3S05's were just completely spent. They had no life left in them at all. I'm probably going to switch back to Kumho's in the next few monthes for my fronts since they usually last a litte longer than Hoosiers, but right now I'm am so distraught about how little competitive life the Hoosiers had in them. They were spot on for about 1.5 events and then they fell off quick.

 

[moxnix]

Have you been spraying the hoosiers down with water between runs? I have been reading that the newer (05 hoosiers as well as the Kumho V710) are better a little cooler than the older models. And need spraying between runs to keep them competive. Also did you get them flipped on the rims or did you just wear them out on the one side? What tires are you running in the rear?

I read a few comments on the SCCA forums about it getting to the point with R comps that some 2 driver cars are trying to swap tires between drivers to keep temps down.

About how many runs did you get on them before they corded? I read about a stock mini getting only 11 runs out of a set before they corded.

Not that you can compare since I run a lighter and more balanced car but I currently have about 85 runs on my 03's and they still seem to be doing ok. I still won my class in D.C. 10 runs ago with them as well as getting 36th in PAX out of 230 drivers. I think I need to get them flipped soon.

 

[xelderx]

I never sprayed the Hoosiers down, but almost all of my runs have had more than 10 minutes between them. I'm running A3S04's in the rear, but my sizes are staggered so the rears are only 205's which keep me from rotating them. I got about 17 runs out of the 05's which seems to be on par with the Mini since I've got more camber. I think the weight of the Protege really accelerated the wear. I'm going to have to have them flipped after every event if I really want to get any decent life out of them. I've got a used 225 A3S04 in the garage that I'll be putting on as well as looking for 1 more so I can hopefully finish out the year. I'll probably go ahead and plan on running 225's all the way around now just so I can rotate them for extra life. I like the rotation I can get with the 205's in the back, but hopefully I can mimick it with a little more air pressure on the 225's. I still might switch to Kumho V710's. I've heard they live a little longer than the Hoosiers and right now I can sacrifice a little grip for life since I had no problem winning Pax and almost getting FTD on the Hoosiers. I was up against Jinx Jordan the Redshift Civic last weekend and I was really frustrated that I couldn't even give it a run for it's money when I knew the Protege was capable of much faster times.

 

[moxnix]

10 mins sounds like enough time but do you use a pyrometer or the hand test to see how hot they feel?

I have not heard anybody agree on if the 710's or the 05's have a higher grip level. It seems like the 710's last longer and that is what I hope to get once I wear out my 03's if I can find somebody that can get my size of them.

 

[apexlater]

I put in a vote for the Avon TechR, I've had absolutely no problem with them on my GS MP3. I'm not sure if they have your size and there is the new TechRa also.

I am horribly camber challenged and I run 35 psi in the front and have no bad tire wear yet and there are about (22) 60second runs on them. I also have the ability to rotate on all four corners since they are all the same size.

I beat out an 05 MiniS on the Hoosier 05s by about 4tenths, but I do hear the 710s may be a bit better just because of tire life.

 

[xelderx]

The Tech R's look good. Not a whole lot of local people running them so there isn't much first hand experience for me to pull from. They have them in the 45 series profile which I like on the Pro5. All the Kumho's are the 50 series profile which I would rather stay away from, but the V710's are considerably cheaper.

 

[Orthonormal]

Try more pressure and/or more camber? 3 degrees isn't that much for a strut car, even with stiff springs. Have you taken temperature profiles that would tell you if you're lacking camber?

V710s and A3S05s are pretty comparable in grip. Avon is coming out with a new autocross version of the Tech R, so maybe wait for that if you're looking at Avon.

 

[xelderx]

I'll be doing a little more testing once I get a new set of tires. The A3S05's were my first set of R-compounds and I just wasn't accustomed to paying that much attention to tires. It was a good learning experience. It showed that my car has the capability to go very fast. Now I just need to make it consistent. I'm going to try and dig up another A3S04 to get me through the rest of the summer since money is very tight. I didn't budget in another set of tires this early in the year.

 

[apexlater]

The TechRa is a little more expensive than the 710, but the 710 doesn't come in a 225-45-15 which is nice.

If this is the first time on R-compounds, you weren't over-driving them were you? R-compounds don't communicate as well as street tires until its too late. It's very easy to think you have more turning, when in fact you end up using the tires as brakes.

I'm not saying thats what you were doing, just a thought.

 

[Gen1GT]

Have you checked to see if one of your rear sway bar links might be broken?

 

[xelderx]

The rear sway bar is fine. The car still handles fine on street tires. I think the tire wear is a result of a heavy car and the in ability to rotate the tires due to the staggered setup. It would have also helped if I would have flipped the tires on the rim, but by the time I knew what the problem was it was too late. Of the last two locations that the tires ran at, one was pretty old concrete and the other was pretty rough asphalt. The R's just didn't have a chance. I was going to switch to the V710's, but I found a super deal on a set of R3S04's that I couldn't pass up. The roadrace compound will take a little more heat and time to be prime, but they should last longer and they are all 225 series so I can rotate them accordingly. I got all 4 with more than 50% tread left for less that the cost of 1 V710. I couldn't say no.

 

[Gen1GT]

I hate to break it to you, but a Protege is not a heavy car. But maybe the unability to to rotate has affected it.

 

[Katya4me]

Compared to a Civic or a Miata, the P5 is a heavy car. Compared to a Corvette or STi, yeah, it's light.

 

[apexlater]

When talking in regards to R-compounds, I think the Protege is right on edge of being a "light" car. I would have to say that anything over 2900lbs is when excellerated tire wear could occur.

Plus, if you don't have camber you're screwed. Especially if you don't know how to drive on R-comps you will go through them in a heartbeat.

 

[dmitrik4]

Compared to a Civic or a Miata, the P5 is a heavy car. Compared to a Corvette or STi, yeah, it's light.

werd. and for an ST or FSP car, it's heavy.

i have totally converted to the "light car" side. wow. just wow. soo much grip. in my first event in my FX, with a half-connected rear swaybar (not bolted to the body), and totally shot struts (i hit the bumpstops on every bump), my 205 Azenis carried my sub-2100 lb, not-making-even-100hp car to a trophy.

 

[Gen1GT]

The top car in FSP in our region is a 370hp Subaru Legacy. Not exactly a light car.

Also, I realize the 3rd gens weight a lot more, but my FSP car tips the scales at 2250 in race trim, and my H Stock Protege is about 2500.

 

[xelderx]

The argument isn't that a heavy FSP car can't win. The problem is that the new Hoosiers didn't last long on the car the way it is setup. When the tires were at their best (2nd event) I ran #2 Raw time (only .18 seconds behind FTD) and #1 Pax, but after that event my Pax started to fall off over the next 2 events as the tires disintergrated. Your club also uses the points system for classing. I'm willing to bet that the Legacy would never make it into FSP under SCCA rules.

 

[xelderx]

Here is a few pics. The second picture shows how the little tread is left over the whole tire, although the lateral groves came from when these tire were switched to the back and I spun out twice in one run.

 

[apexlater]

Dang, what kind of surfaces are you running on? I have 20+ runs on my Avon TechR with less than 1degree of neg camber, and they are holding up fine. I will probably flip them on the rim after the next few events since I can see just a slight bit of "wedge" from inside to outside of the tread width.

Maybe that's what the Hoosiers are, grenade tires that you break-in and just use for 2 events and then they are done. Expensive.

 

[moxnix]

I don't see your DOT grooves in the tire any longer at all?

We have a local guy driving an 05 mini that runs the R3S04's at the local events and still gets the top PAX time of the day. I think he runs 710's at national events. But I know last year he was running the R3S04's at some national level events and doing well on them (in the 03/04 mini)

My 03's seem to be holding up ok on the miata still. I might have to try to take a picture of them now. They have been flipped but I did not have the car aligned for the first 50 or so runs on them so the (inside now) shoulder is pretty worn down.

I hope I can get at least 90+ runs on them flipped.