High Compression

[Coolhand]

Just a question... for those of us who are going it the N/A route, what are the advantages/disadvantages of going with the high compression piston set? Would this be an effective mod and would it affect the durability/reliability of the engine? Any takers?

 

[20ESGUY]

High compression is a good way to build horse power, but you'll want to add the ZE cams to get the most out of the added compression. Also you'll want to add a header and a cat back to free up some breathing room. Just be sure to slightly retard the timing to be sure not to experince predetination (spark knock).

 

[P5PCU]

Just be sure to slightly retard the timing to be sure not to experince predetination (spark knock).

How would we be able to slightly retard the timing without an ignition upgrade? I am asking cause i am in the process of getting the pistons and the cams and i dont want 2 f**k my car up.

 

[Zeus]

You can retard the ignition by either removing and remounting the timing sensor on the cam pulley, reprogramming the ECU, or buying a stand-alone. But I havent heard of anybody doing any of these things on a Pro yet. However, Ive repositioned many a timing sensor to add advance, and its normally not all that hard.

I dont really think youll need to retard just because of the higher CR of ZE pistons. Detonation shouldnt be a problem, and retarding ignition will just cut into power output. Id expect that even at 10.3:1, a little advance will be necessary to even get close to the output of the JDM engine. I dont know the ignition curve of either engine, but there is obviously something different between the two ECUs. A serious reprogram or custom stand-alone engine controller is the way to go if you really want to make it go.

I plan on going N/A, but will raise CR only moderately through head work, and spend the money I save by not replacing pistons on custom cam grinds. There is no dought that the simplest and most effective power gains are in cams, and IMHO the JDMs just arent much of an improvement over what we have already.

 

[chdesign]

FOr timing retard you would have to get a MSD DIS-2 box. You cannot relocate the ferrous metal pickups on teh cam pully as they are cast into the pully themselves...if you don't believe me I can send you the extra gear I have sitting on my desk. No one will reprogram our ECU as it is hard programmed at WOT. You can do a stand alone but the cheapest easiest way is to get a MSD DIS-2 for about 250 or go all out liek i'm going to do and get teh DIS-2 programmable and programm your own ignition maps on your computer.

 

[mazdamp3_18]

i am going to same NA route, im getting cams as soon as corksport gets their next shipment of them in, and im getting ported and polished soon. and then im getting a MSD or a Stand Alone. then im getting pistons probably the 10.7:1.. or maybe i can get the pistons from the rally mp3... i forgot the name of the company that tuned that engine but i believe the compression is 12:1...

 

[mazdamp3_18]

i forgot to say that my new goal is to be able to BLOW away the new mazdaspeed in a race.... i am hoping ill be able to get over 170 hp with what i want to get....

 

[chdesign]

Good luck with the NA route you are a braver man than me. Think of it Roger Foo's car a fully built race car makes about 215 hp and the mazdaspeed could probably make that by just turning up the boost a bit. Once i get my stroker kit built and my clutch I will be good to 20 PSI and at 18 PSI i've seen a dyno of a turbo probe with the same stroker i'm building making 365 whp. i'm sorry but you won't see that with the NA route and I'm sure for me to get there will be much less than getting to 215 hp that roger foo has.

 

[mazdamp3_18]

i couldnt agree with you more chd... but im not wanting 400 hp and no driveablility other than at the track... i want a fast reliable daily driver
that will put alot of the others down

 

[jmauld]

No one will reprogram our ECU as it is hard programmed at WOT. .

What do you mean by "hard programmed". From a programmers point of view, that means that the WOT maps are specified with hardware components. (Which honestly would be silly to do) But if tbat were the case, then it would be easier to change then changing software....

 

[Zeus]

CH, the part cast into the pulley cant be the pickup, it has to be the target. The pickup would need to be wired into the system and that dont work on a rotating part like the pulley. Im sure the Mazda engineers have found a way to make it as solid and unadjustable as possible. Even though I havent looked into it yet, I know there is always another way. I assume the second half of the sensor, or pickup, is machined into the head and also cant be moved, so if you really needed to you could abandon it and fab a bracket for mounting a new pickup on the outboard side. Or the ferric target on the pulley could be drilled out and remounted with epoxy. Either way, I agree that adjustments to ignition timing through the sensor are assed, unless you go with adjustable pulleys for valve timing. Then you have to deal with it.

The ECU can be reprogrammed too. How effectively, no one knows. You just have to bypass WOT. WTF do we need an open loop WOT routine for anyway? The TPS just needs a little work. Also I cant believe that the WOT routine is hardware coded. Its likely firmware that resides on separate chip thats just not program accessible.

Superchips is near by me and theyve said theyll be on it by this summer. Their products may not be the most aggressive available, but they do know how to hack an ECU, I found that out a few years ago when I got with them for a custom 4X4 application. I figured Id see what info I can extract from them.

A stand alone is definitely the way to go. Id love to get the AEM that is claimed to be plug and play but also infinitely programmable. I just have a hard time forking out that many bills for a Protg.

BTW, I'll buy your spare cam shafts and pulley if you want to unload them.

 

[jmauld]

I don't think it's hardwired. From a cost point of view, why would you add extra hardware?? I think this information is being passed down by people who don't have a "hacked product" to sell, so instead they talk bad about the ECU in hopes of getting you to buy the more expensive Stand Alone equipment. (I'm not trashing the stand alone equipment, I just wouldn't put it on a car that has to pass emissions and is my daily driver!)

Time will tell. If someone wants to donate a ECU to me, I'll see if I can get the code pulled from it myself.

 

[chdesign]

The Pickup is on the cam pulley. Look on the left hadn sid eof your valve cover and you will see the sensor. It is a Ferous metal sensor that tells the ECU whenever the "knubs" on the Pully pass over the sensor showing the cam position. It is not adjustable unless cam gears were made in which case they would have to be made so that they pickups do not move but the cam does. I have the Pulley right here and I have confired with both Mazda Mechanics and Bryan Pendleton on this and I know I am correct on this particular subject of the Cam Position sensor.

 

[jmauld]

OKay, so there are a few possibilities then.

-Make it so that the pickup sensor can be slide and thus adjusted. There may need to be a special bracket made, or maybe you can notch the sensor itself.

-Adjust the intake cam, by one tooth one way or the other which would adjust both cam timing and ignition timing, in this case.

-you could easily build an electrical delay to retard the signal. But we probably want to advance the signal (except for you guys with boost)

Also, from working with Eagle/Mitsubishi mechanics, NEVER assume that they "know" anything about the cars, especially modifying them.

An example of this is when I had to point out the leaky transfer case on my old talon in order to get it replaced under recall. The mechanics were looking in the wrong place for the leak.

 

[Zeus]

The Pickup is on the cam pulley. Look on the left hand side of your valve cover and you will see the sensor.

OK CH, you say the pick up is on the pulley, and on the valve cover, I agree. You're correct yet a little confused.

Theres a piece of the sensor in both places. There are two parts to any rotational position sensor, be it a cam, crank shaft, automotive or otherwise. There is a pick up and a target. The pick up detects when the target passes by, via hall effect in this case. Its the pick up that sends a pulse to the ECU that indicates crank position. The pick up can not be in the cam pulley as the wires would get wrapped around the shaft.

Ill bet the pulley has the target or ferrous nubs built into it, but it is only the passive part of a two part sensor. The pick up has to be stationary to detect the target as it passes by, and is the active part that feeds the pulse back to the ECU. The pick up is probably the piece you mention on the valve cover. It's a matter of semantics.

I agree neither piece is intended to be adjustable, but that doesnt mean they cant be with a little determined machine work. However, the only time I would advocate this adjustment or modification is when one knows for certain that a static timing adjustment is necessary. Since there arent many instances where a static adjustment is going to help, its probably better left alone. What everyone is going to need sooner or later is dynamic ignition mapping adjustment. But, that is only going to happen through re-programming the stock ECU or a stand alone.

Peace.

Do you want to rid yourself of those old cams and pulley?

Why does everyone want to hold onto those nasty old OEM cam shafts?

 

[jmauld]

work. However, the only time I would advocate this adjustment or modification is when one knows for certain that a static timing adjustment is necessary. Since there arent many instances where a static adjustment is going to help, its probably better left alone. What everyone is going to need sooner or later is dynamic ignition mapping adjustment. But, that is only going to happen through re-programming the stock ECU or a stand alone.

The ECU uses this as it's basis for adjusting the timing. If you can advance it 5 degrees, then you will be adding +5 degrees of timing throughout the rpm band. This is good! Unless you're running boost and you want to reduce timing so you can run more boost.

Now another problem that will come up is "reading" the timing. If there is no way of adjusting it from the factory, then there will probably be no way of reading it with a timing light. So the adjustments will be made in the dark. A dyno would solve that problem though!

 

[stifler2870]

If you want to check out the world challege protege specifications then here is a link i found www.speedvisionwc.com/competitors/vts/02-mazda-protege-2.0.pdf

 

[Zeus]

I'd seen that before, and it's good info if it's accurate. As near as I call tell there is serious head work, with ports opened up and decking to 12.5 or 13:1 given the 30cc chamber volume. Port ends are way big, yet volume is low in comparison. I don't know the stock valve size, but they sound like they're bigger too.

Stroke looks the same with about 1.5mm over bore and custom dished pistons. No mention made of cam durations, but look at the lift! Compare that to the JDM cams, which are wimpy in comparrson.

All in all, nothing out of our reach with a little custom fabrication. I'm sure the HP is off the engine stand too, and not the wheels. I'd put the price tag at less than $5k, not counting the ECU, and the hours of dyno time spent tuning.

Can anybody come up with the stock specs not listed in the FAQ? I'd like to look into it further. Specifically head, valves and rods.

Pretty much where I was headed, before I went and drove the WRX again. I just need to wait another year to let some tickets drop off my record. Damn DVM. Damn Statefarm too.

 

[jmauld]

From looking at their hp numbers and the cam specs. There is a good bit of power hiding in the cams alone. We should petition one of the companies to produce a set of cams for us. Does anyone know how much clearance we have to increase lift? Or how much the lift the springs can handle, without upgrading.