Help! Need advice on roaring diff/tranny

MrDiggler

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Spicy MSP #1349, '88 323 GTX, '79 10th Ann. T/A, 462 ci 4-spd
Hey all. I was a recent addition to the failed differential club. It was towed two hours away (to the nearest 'speed dealer), where the diff was pulled and replaced under warranty. However, I requested that the dealer take the replacement diff to a welder to beef it up. I paid to have the extra welds put in like Turfburn suggests and others have done. Supposedly the welds were beautiful. I never did get to see the diff before it went in though.

The only way I could get the diff welded was to waive the remainder of my warranty on the diff and the rest of the tranny, which I agreed to. I didn't forsee any problems in the next 18k miles, and this was the only easy way to have the diff beefed up. But of course, because I have such sh*t luck, I've got a problem I didn't have before... I hear a roaring/droning noise from the front (more toward the drivers side, it seems) that changes somewhat in pitch with vehicle speed. It doesn't matter if the clutch is pushed in or the car is in gear. It doesn't vary with engine speed, and seems to get slightly deeper, louder and harsher when I get below about 25 mph, and quits just before the car comes to a stop.

When they called me today to tell me the car was ready, the service advisor said the tech mentioned some tire noise on the test drive. I told him that I never really noticed any tire noise and figured I'd just have to drive up there and check it out for myself. The service dept. was closed by the time I got there and a sales mgr. took care of me. I did take it for a quick spin before checking out, and did hear some noise, but I figured it could have been any number of things (they did the front brakes too) and wasn't that worried about it. Sure enough, it continued on my trip home and if anything, it seems worse. I'm now wishing I had left my car there and kept the loaner. While the noise resembles tire noise, especially the kind that an off-road tire makes, I'm sure that's not it. The tires are fine and they are rotating the right direction.

The only thing I can think of is that the pinion depth and/or backlash isn't right, or there's a problem with a bearing. This is not going to be an easy situation since I've waived warranty on the tranny and differential, but I'm damn sure that something in there isn't set up right and that it has nothing to do with the extra welds put in. My diff is supposedly the 2nd gen. unit that gets put in when the originals break. Does anyone elses make noise like this? Does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks in advance.

*Update - Just talked w/ service mgr. He says they'll try to work with me, but only if THEY did something wrong, and of course, I'll have to prove that. He said too that the welds on the diff were about the prettiest he'd ever seen, but that they were not really uniform in length (and therefore weight). Nobody had mentioned this detail to me before now. I can't imagine that they were off by much, or that very small differences in weight could throw the balance off enough to cause this noise. After all, the ring that's welded is fairly close to the rotational center of the unit. I dunno. Arrrggghhh!
 
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If the Diff was welded improperly you'd get vibration that would be felt through the clutch and shifter etc... noise wouldn't be your big issue there... It sounds like a bad bearing to me. Otherwise the only thing I can think of is if the fluid isn't up to par or they made you low on fluid...

If it is gear lash or so forth it should change in pitch somewhat based on load... You should be able to put it up on a lift and run it in gear and let the engine idle the wheels along and see if it makes the noise then.. it should be easier to trace.

Also, do you notice it in reverse at all?

If the pitch/tone doesn't change vastly as speed increases then it's not likely the diff...

Basically think of it this way... One of the gear shafts always rotates at the speed of the motor, while one of the other shafts has it's speed depending on the diff rotation which depends on the wheels, which depends on the absolute speed of the vehicle... if the noise is from that shaft/diff/axles/wheel bearings then it will increase in pitch and tone with increase in vehicle speed... if it is the other shaft or something with the clutch (which is another major possibility for you) it will be more dependent on engine rpm.

Later!

Steve
 
Thanks TB. The tone or pitch doesn't change a lot, but it does change with absolute vehicle speed and in no way seems related to anything else but that. It's a pretty steady roar, but just deeper and rougher at lower speed, and directly proportional to vehicle speed.

Haven't been able to run it long enough in reverse to tell anything there.

I wonder if they left out gear oil or put in water or something, lol. I'll know more when I can get it up on a lift. As for right now they're telling me that they think the diff is out of balance because of the welds. I told them that was highly unlikely. There is zero vibration, just what sounds like gear noise or noise from a big bearing. Even if it is a hair out, that sure as hell isn't causing this noise. Is it possible the ring gear or something else warped from the heat of the welding?
 
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If the welder sucked then yeah they could overheat and warp the ring gear... but if it was TIG welded they should have used either no filler metal or very little and even if the welds are not the same length the few grams of mass that the thing would be off would be quite negligible. So the balance should NOT be an issue... I'm guessing dirt on it during the installation got in a bearing or something.. hence it got worse as you drove it.
 
I talked to the welder today and he said that it was TIG welded. They did use a filler rod, but not much. As for the heat, he said that couldn't be the problem. They did one stitch at a time in a continually opposing pattern. He said the unit picked up some heat, but nothing serious. After all, there's a lot of mass there to soak up the heat.

At this point I don't think the welding had anything to do with it. It's a big roll of the dice, though. I'll have to go without my car another week or two, and I'll just have to pray that they find something wrong that doesn't have anything to do with the welding job. If I'm wrong, the bill is going to be huge. It sucks that I'm two hours away from the dealer, too.
 
I had a sick sound and vibration after i dropped my clutch and when they pulled the tranny my diff was ****** so they replaced that too but it still made insane amounts of vibe and noise....turns out it was a broken engine mount....
 
AuburnMSPfreak said:
I had a sick sound and vibration after i dropped my clutch and when they pulled the tranny my diff was ****** so they replaced that too but it still made insane amounts of vibe and noise....turns out it was a broken engine mount....

Hmmm. It's a long shot, but I'll check it out. Thanks.

BTW, you go to school at Auburn?
 
Yeah, you know it? you go to school around there or somn cuz i definately haven't seen you around there, the only other msp i've seen is a black 03...holla back


MrDiggler said:
Hmmm. It's a long shot, but I'll check it out. Thanks.

BTW, you go to school at Auburn?
 
If they didn't tighten the axle nuts properly then it could be a wheel bearing going. This would explain the noise only while moving, and also why it got louder as time went on. Does the noise subside if you sway to the left or right while driving?
 
BlkZoomZoom said:
If they didn't tighten the axle nuts properly then it could be a wheel bearing going. This would explain the noise only while moving, and also why it got louder as time went on. Does the noise subside if you sway to the left or right while driving?

No, it doesn't change much, if at all, when turning or swaying.
I haven't ruled out a wheel bearing, but I've had them go out on other cars, and this just isn't quite the same sound. It also doesn't seem to be localized toward one side or the other. It's almost like the source of it is directly in front of me, under the hood. It's darn hard to tell since I can't talk any of my friends into hanging on underneath the engine bay while I get it up to speed. ;D
 
AuburnMSPfreak said:
Yeah, you know it? you go to school around there or somn cuz i definately haven't seen you around there, the only other msp i've seen is a black 03...holla back

No, I'm about 3 hours north of ya. But, my cousin's husband is one of the managers of the Anders book store on campus. He and my cousin both went to Auburn and are huge Auburn fans.
 
Thats what they make wireless chassis ears for. Best 250 I ever spent, best thing since sliced bread.... Well not really but they have allowed me to make my money back in time savings.
 
BlkZoomZoom said:
Thats what they make wireless chassis ears for. Best 250 I ever spent, best thing since sliced bread.... Well not really but they have allowed me to make my money back in time savings.

What on earth? I've never heard of that. Too cool!
 
BlkZoomZoom said:
Thats what they make wireless chassis ears for. Best 250 I ever spent, best thing since sliced bread.... Well not really but they have allowed me to make my money back in time savings.


interesting.
 
Well Igrdrasil found these thing's called spy ears on Ebay.. and he has one and they work great... can find them for 99 cents ;) high powered microphone and ear buds for listening ...
 
MrDiggler said:
No, I'm about 3 hours north of ya. But, my cousin's husband is one of the managers of the Anders book store on campus. He and my cousin both went to Auburn and are huge Auburn fans.

Really where are you at? I'm originally from Birmingham. Do you know of any meets in the area??
 
Update:

I finally got it on a lift and was able to run it in gear. It was hard to hear the sound clearly while underneath it because of the noise from the engine, but it seems to be coming from the passenger's side of the tranny. I couldn't hear anything until I put the car in 5th and got the speedo up to about 40mph. My girlfriend also mentioned that she can hear it better while in the passenger's seat than when she's driving. I don't know enough about our trannys yet to know what's in that half of it, but that's where it seems to come from.

I also found out I have a cv joint that sqeaks when you turn the wheels by hand. It's the inner joint on the driver's side. I guess the dealer will need to look into that too. I'm taking up to them Tuesday. I wish I knew for sure what the hell was causing this before having them tear it back down.


Auburn - I'm in Chattanooga. I haven't really kept up with any meets. Search for Topher, he's in Columbus. He keeps up with stuff in your area and is a cool guy.
 
Hey,

The first pic is ofcourse the tranny internals Second is Kooldino cleaning my tranny lol This picture should give you a better understanding of how things work inside. The pass. side of the tranny is on the ground. However, the actual guts of the tranny are exposed. I actually have a different type of noise, mine only "comes out" when I'm idling with the clutch depressed. As you can see in that pic the LSD is actually the closest to the firewall, probably where the noise is coming from. You should've have got new bearings with the new LSD, therefore the noise is probably not coming from the LSD bearings. I'm not sure if we should have used new bearings through out the whole tranny after it's taken apart or not, so that could also be a source of the noise. Let us know what you find out!

Later.
 
AuburnMSPfreak said:
I had a sick sound and vibration after i dropped my clutch and when they pulled the tranny my diff was ****** so they replaced that too but it still made insane amounts of vibe and noise....turns out it was a broken engine mount....

Im getting a bad vibration to and shop told me it was a bad rear trans mount..... Is it posible that is is a bad motor mount. Could you tell me more about this?
 

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