Hard time tuning MSP any ideas?

teknik · Jan 11, 2004

we spent about 6 hours on the dyno yesterday and had horrible results.

we could not get one back to back run.

car has hard pipes, greddy boost controller, greddy emanage, 4:1 vortech FMU and a 3 inch turbo back exhuast.

made 196 at 8psi but the A/F was to high at about 12.5 out the back

the main proble is a s follows. right at 3000 rpm the computer dumps fuel. the duty cycle on the injectors goes to 100% and it feels like its pulling timing. the rest of the time the car is recovering

any ideas?

im wondering if we need to clamp the MAF at the specific RPM range to prevent it from dumping fuel.

do you think the ecu needs to be reflashed?

we where able to solve the stalling problem with the greddy emanage by clamping the MAF voltage down low. so I dont want to hear that the greddy emanage doesnt work.

jersey_emt · Jan 11, 2004

teknik said:
the main proble is a s follows. right at 3000 rpm the computer dumps fuel. the duty cycle on the injectors goes to 100% and it feels like its pulling timing. the rest of the time the car is recovering

any ideas?

Sounds like the PCM going to open loop.

Many people have tried (and failed) to get around it.

azian6er · Jan 11, 2004

are you in naples FL? Were you the tech who was tuning this guys car?:

http://mazdamp3.com/vbb230/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45908&perpage=15&pagenumber=5

-B

InsidiousMSP · Jan 11, 2004

azian6er said:
are you in naples FL? Were you the tech who was tuning this guys car?:

http://mazdamp3.com/vbb230/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45908&perpage=15&pagenumber=5

-B

Sounds like it. That's the guy who said it took 64 wires to hook up the e-manage, maybe that's the problem, lol.

All joking aside, no one on this forum has been able to get the e-Manage effectively working with a MSP ECU. Here's a quote from turboge

Originally posted by turboge
The ecu doesn't really reboot the maps, it stores values in the Long Term fuel trim at set rpms, then constantly changes the mix with short term fuel trim. In order to get a decent tune out of the vehicle you would have the tune the car over and over again until the ecu could not compensate any more.. at that point the CEL comes on.

OPEN loop tuning is not a large problem, however the problem is that the MSP ecu is not consistent in when it decides to go to OPEN loop. In some instances I could step on the gas and it would go OPEN instantly, but a majority of the time it would stay in CLOSED loop until a certain RPM was reached, and even then it wasn't consistent.

teknik · Jan 12, 2004

yep, I am the guy that is trying to tune the car, but no, I did not hook up the greddy emanage.. that would be Dave at liberty in naples..

anywho..

why does the pcm go to open loop? does it sence to much voltage from the maf? or is it tryin to protect itself from going to lean?

also in the other thread I noticed people telling him he didnt need the FMU if he had the greddy.. well if at 8psi the injectoirs are 100% at redline yielding a 12.5 -12 .8 A/F with a couple degrees of timing pulled how in the world would he get to 10psi without one? the greddy doesnt make the injectors go past 100% duty cycle.

anyway im thinking we will have to use the greddy to clamp the MAF at a certain voltage = to stock boost levels, and then use the fmu to adjust the fuel.

has anyone tried this?

also has anyone tried altering the fuel and tining VIA DPP thought the ODB port? I was told it was a ford ECU and I have read that mazda can flash them so obviously the ability is there. all you would need to do is get your hands on the .bin file they are uploading figure out the checksums and decompile it. then you wouldnt need a greddy or an fmu.

AutoBox · Jan 12, 2004

are u talkin about a "flash" tune? like plugin into the obd2 port? i thik that was talked about too...but no shop has tried to work that yet....if you ar able to crack the ecm let us know please!!

igdrasil · Jan 12, 2004

anyway, 196whp on only 8psi is damn good.

good luck you people...

jred321 · Jan 12, 2004

when you have a unit like the greddy, that is supposed to control your fuel. making the injectors go past 100% duty cycle with an fmu basically counters the whole point of being able to fine tune with the greddy

good luck with the emanage (poke)

AutoBox · Jan 12, 2004

with it runnin 12.5 a/f, it cleans up the rich fuel...opens the msp up alot, is the tuning holding at least, tek?

orangezoom · Jan 12, 2004

yes it holds it is my car

AutoBox · Jan 12, 2004

cool....so its basically the ecm leanin out the fuel more then what was tuned?!?! i think turboge had this problem.......maybe hell chime in

ARunto · Jan 12, 2004

is the ECM flashed or non-flashed?

orangezoom · Jan 12, 2004

non flashed

teknik · Jan 12, 2004

jred321 said:
when you have a unit like the greddy, that is supposed to control your fuel. making the injectors go past 100% duty cycle with an fmu basically counters the whole point of being able to fine tune with the greddy

good luck with the emanage (poke)

an fmu does nothing to alter the duty cylce of an injector so it would never make it go 100% duty cyle.. unless you push to much pressure thought it and it goes static but with a 4:1 at 8 psi I dont think thats happening. what it does do is put more fuel in per inject pulse.

honestly I think we are going to scrap the fmu and go with an adjustable FPR. and then try to use the greddy to fine tune.

at anyrate what ever I figure out ill let you guys now.

ARunto · Jan 12, 2004

teknik said:
honestly I think we are going to scrap the fmu and go with an adjustable FPR. and then try to use the greddy to fine tune.

This will probably work better..if you need more fuel then do the above and a walbro pump.

-Alan

AutoBox · Jan 12, 2004

def let us know...im at the point i really want a nice cheap tuning device asap

turboge · Jan 12, 2004

The MSP will effectively go into OPEN loop when in a WOT condition under X amount of boost between 3000-4200RPM. At 4200RPM you will always be in OPEN loop above 5-10% throttle.

With all of your added airflow the car now leans out at the top end, this SHOULD NOT occur with a 4:1 FMU on the car unless you are purposely leaning out the fuel up top.

At 5500RPM the fuel curve will lean itself out and advance the timing. Beyond 5500RPM you DO NOT want the fuel to rise above 12.2:1 A/F or detonation will seriously occur. Between 4200-4700 you want to aim for 11.8-12:1, at 4750 the VICS will open up and cause a LEAN spike. from 4800-5500 you can maintain 11.8-12:1 for optimum power and safety.

As far as timing goes there is a LOT to work with here, on a flashed car at 3000-5500 rpm the timing is roughly 2-3 degrees BTC. I've run close to 12-14 degrees in that range without detonation.. however its not easy to maintain a smooth A/F curve with the stock ecu so you can't really advance the timing all too much.

You are running into the same problems I ran into, if you want to e-mail your E-manage maps over to me I can take a look at them for you and see if I can help. Otherwise your SOL.

BTW, you can also set the injectors up as "Stock 100cc" "Aftermarket 115cc" and it will get most of the ratio's dialed in well, then you just cleanup idle and cruise. It will still relearn the trims and lock them into the ECU's RAM, only a reset will clear the trims allowing you to start a fresh tune over.

teknik · Jan 12, 2004

so your saying its normal for the car to dump fuel when it goes from closed to open loop. how retarded... in all honesty it sounds like the VW 1.8ts when you go above a certain boost level it goes into limp mode.. dump fuels, and limits you to 3psi...

I was planning to clamp the MAF using the greddy to levels it would normaly see during stock boost, then using a map sensor and the greddy to control fueling above the stock boost levels levels.

in effect blinding the ecu to the higher boost levels and then using the greddy with a map sensor to control fuel.

did you try this?

turboge · Jan 12, 2004

When it goes to OPEN loop it dumps fuel in depending on throttle position. I've seen partial OPEN loop just above 0vac on hills where it will maintain a solid 11.5:1 A/F then you dip into the throttle a tiny bit more and its below 10:1. It won't limit boost because theres no control for boost on the car other than the wastegate.

You can clamp the voltage but it becomes very picky on when and where you clamp it, again it is inconsistent on where it transitions from CLOSED / OPEN loop. It's a very tough system to tune.

I've tried everything from clamping to unclamping to dumping fuel with additional injection, to modifying the MAF signal and Add. Inj... It's a pain.

Try unplugging a sensor and throwing the car into "limp" mode with a CEL then tuning... might work better.

teknik · Jan 12, 2004

so basically this car is in the suck...

ugh....

what about bigger injectors? im thinking thats going to be a nightmare id rather not see.

Hard time tuning MSP any ideas?

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