gun locks fail

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02 pro
i just thought i'd post this


When Gun Safety Locks Kill
By
Erich Pratt



It has been said that if you don't study history, you are doomed to repeat it.

That's why Americans should take note of a horrible tragedy that occurred one year ago this month in Merced, California. It is a tragedy that could have been prevented.

On the morning of August 23, 2000, Jonathon David Bruce was high on drugs. He slipped inside a home when the parents were away and began attacking the children inside.

Armed only with a pitchfork, and without a stitch of clothing on his body, Bruce proceeded to chase the children through the house -- stabbing them repeatedly.

The oldest of the children, Jessica Carpenter (14), was babysitting at the time. Having been trained by her father, Jessica knew how to use a firearm. There was just one problem: the household gun was locked up in compliance with California state law.

Because of California's "lock up your safety" law, Jessica had few options. She could not call 911 because the intruder had cut the phone lines to the house. She could not protect herself, for state officials had effectively removed that possibility. Her only option was to flee the house and leave her siblings behind.

Thankfully, Mr. Bruce's murderous rampage was finally cut short when police officers arrived at the house. They shot and killed Bruce, but not before two children had already been murdered.

Now, notice when the attack ended. It screeched to a halt when the good guys -- carrying guns -- showed up on the scene.

Which has made many wonder: could Jessica have protected her brother and sister if the state law had not prevented her from doing so?

Well, the family seems to think so. After the murders, Jessica's uncle, Rev. John Hilton, blasted California legislators for having scared the father into hiding the gun where Jessica, who was trained in the use of firearms, could not get it.

"If only [Jessica] had a gun available to her," said Rev. Hilton, "she could have stopped the whole thing. If she had been properly armed, she could have stopped him in his tracks."

Of course, that kind of talk sends gun haters into orbit. "Hold on," they say. "Kids shouldn't have access to guns. And you can't expect a 14-year-old to handle a weapon in a responsible fashion during a high-pressure encounter like that."

Oh really? Tell that to the 12-year-old Mississippi girl who used a gun to save her mother's life this past April.

The girl's mother was being choked in her own apartment by Anthony Fox, a 25-year-old man who had forced his way into the apartment. The cries for help woke up the daughter who grabbed her mother's handgun and shot Fox in the chest.

One shot. One dead killer. A 12-year-old saves the day.

Prosecutors ruled the shooting a case of justifiable self-defense.

Which brings us back to Jessica. She could very well have saved the lives of her two siblings. If she had access to her father's gun to save those children's lives, would that have been wrong?

For that matter, was it wrong for the 12-year-old girl in Mississippi to have access to her mother's handgun in order to prevent a murder?

In California, the answer to these questions is: "Yes, it is always wrong for anyone to have immediate access to a firearm, even when it's to save the life of a family member."

Governor Gray Davis just signed a bill last month putting more "teeth" into California's original gun storage law. Under the new legislation, parents face additional criminal penalties if they refuse to lock up their best means of self-defense.

Many legislators -- both at the state level and in Washington, D.C. -- seem to think they know what's best for each family in every situation.

Parents are told they need to put trigger locks on their guns. Or that they must store their ammunition separately from their firearms. Or that they must store the weapons in a safe.

But many times, locking up your safety in any of those ways can be deadly. Americans use guns almost 50,000 times every week to defend themselves or others. And in most of those situations, a trigger lock would give criminals the advantage.

Consider a case from March of this year, where a trigger lock would have cost the life of homeowner, Chuck Harris.

After being repeatedly stabbed by three young men in his Colorado home, Harris managed to grab the .44-Magnum pistol he kept in a desk drawer. Thankfully, Harris didn't have to remember a combination or fiddle with a trigger lock -- he just pointed the gun and fired.

That quick thinking saved his life, and has caused Harris to later reflect upon what was, perhaps, the obvious.

"If I'd had a trigger lock, I'd be dead," he said. "If my pistol had been in a gun safe, I'd be dead. If the bullets were stored separate, I'd be dead. They were going to kill me."

Which raises a very important question: when it comes to life or death issues, who is best suited to make choices for you? You, or some faceless bureaucrat who is hundreds of miles away, impotent to rush to your aid? You, or the politicians in the U.S. Congress?

It would, perhaps, help to know how those bureaucrats and politicians answer that question for themselves. They are not left unprotected. They have security officers nearby who are carrying guns.

And no, those guns don't have trigger locks on them.
 
I'm trying to find a report of this incident from any law enforcement or news agency. Has anyone found anything? I have only found other exact copies of this story, or copies that are very similar.

At first thought, this seems like an urban legend sort of thing. The whole 'guy was high on drugs', blaming a gun control law being the direct cause of the deaths, etc., combined with the trouble finding an official record of the incident with a law enforcement agency, or an official story from a news agency....these things just scream out 'urban legend!' Or, more likely, this incident, or one similar to it, did in fact happen, but some extra details (like the high on drugs comment) were added in to make it a more engaging read.

Of course, if anyone has information, please share it.
 
This is very well put. Our government is turning more and more into a socialist system. It angers me when the government trys to step into situations like this, and think they know whats best. They really dont know jack about living in the real world. If we as americans and citizens can do anything, its to make our government danm well sure that we are not scared of them. They day the government feels they have full power over the citizens, is the day we loose everything. So what ever you do, if someone comes up to you, Dont believe them if they tell you "We are the government, and we are here to help". :)
 
I have a couple of things to say about this:

1. We probably should start the dumpster countdown right now...I give this thread 24 hours...

2. I'm all for owning guns and having the right to use them to protect yourself.

3. There is an urban-legend feel to this story, though I definitely don't have any proof of that.

4. I see the point the story is making, but (remember, I'm no gun-hating hippie) how many 14 year old kids are actually trained to use a gun? This story seems to insinuate a few isolated situations prove that gun locks are more of a problem than a solution. I feel like it's pretty one-sided to not also consider that for every one of these situations, there are hundreds of 14 year old kids that would find and play with a parent's gun, endangering themselves and other kids. Gun locks prevent this. Who is to say that this guy "high on drugs" could not have overpowered the 14 year old girl, taken the gun and shot all the kids, plus a police officer. You can't use a story like that as an argument against gun control when it could also very easily be an argument for gun control. The argument this story makes is very poor...it's like saying because an airbag killed an old lady, there shouldn't be airbags in cars.
 
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I have a couple of things to say about this:

1. We probably should start the dumpster countdown right now...I give this thread 24 hours...

2. I'm all for owning guns and having the right to use them to protect yourself.

3. There is an urban-legend feel to this story, though I definitely don't have any proof of that.

4. I see the point the story is making, but (remember, I'm no gun-hating hippie) how many 14 year old kids are actually trained to use a gun? This story seems to insinuate that this one isolated situation proves that gun locks are more of a problem than a solution. I feel like it's pretty one-sided to not also consider that for every one of these situations, there are hundreds of 14 year old kids that would find and play with a parent's gun, endangering themselves and other kids. Gun locks prevent this. The argument this story makes is very poor...it's like saying because an airbag killed an old lady, there shouldn't be airbags in cars.

Exactly. Right now, this has an 'urban legend' vibe to it, and I have not been able to find any information to prove or disprove that theory.
 
well i have been shooting guns since i was big enough to hold one right....i was put through a gun safety course before i was 10 and hunted every since i learned to shoot. i had gun safety pounded into my head from all my family. if i ever have kids i will do the same and more than likely i will keep firearms in the house locked and loaded.

now about the story, yeah it does seem like a 'staged' story but it is once again a story where victims have less rights that criminals. bureaucrats want to make it tougher on home owners with their guns, but do criminals listen to these laws....you have to lock up your gun and store ammo seperate, bs.......simple fact: if someone breaks into your house and goes after your family do you really wanna have to goto 3 rooms to be able to defend yourselves. and no i don't think that opinion is pushing the limits. i'm all for shooting an attacker dead in his rights if one decides to harm a loved one or attempt to do so. he left his rights to life behind the sec he tried to do harm to another. hell the justice system will have that person back out on the street with in a year.
 
this is really a double edge sword topic

on one side... yes, having a gun can safe your life in those situations

on the other... can all people be trusted to handle guns properly? there is a long list of idiots i know i wouldn't trust with a knife... much less a gun with no safety on it


P.S. i have nothing against guns, just also like the idea of using tasers instead
 
I'm sorry but there's a couple instances shown where having a gun at the ready could have/did save lives, but lets compare that to the number of injuries/lives lost by kids that get into their parents guns because they're not locked up and they don't know how to use them. The odds of a child or their friend in your house getting injured/dying by finding/going to get the unlocked loaded gun are far higher IMO than of an intruder coming in and killing me before I can enter my lock code. (for the record, I have a 4 digit turn lock case and I keep it all entered except one for easy access if I need it quick.) Also, who's to say if little suzie sniper had a gun she'd have stopped the attack? Maybe she'd go in guns blazing and hit everyone but the attacker, maybe she'd...in the moment of panic...forget to turn the safety off, come in, and get stabbed herself and not be alive. Yeah, there'd be that chance there, but the article would lead one to believe that she'd have come in and saved the day when, for all we know, the guy was so high he'd have been able to get shot and still manage to stab her before he died. It just seems the odds of someone getting hurt by it not being locked up are far greater than the odds of someone getting hurt because I couldn't get my gun out in time.
 
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this is really a double edge sword topic

on one side... yes, having a gun can safe your life in those situations

on the other... can all people be trusted to handle guns properly? No, but can all people be trusted to drive a car? Be a teacher? Perform surgery? there is a long list of idiots i know i wouldn't trust with a knife... much less a gun with no safety on it. Doesn't matter if the gun has a safety on it or not, stop blaming the in-animate object and start blaming the idiot.


P.S. i have nothing against guns, just also like the idea of using tasers instead. Great idea, but what happens when the guy trying to rape you is on PCP? It's already been proven that people on neuro-stims are unaffected by tasers. What happens when the 2 prongs miss? So forth and so on.
 
I have a couple of things to say about this:
4. I see the point the story is making, but (remember, I'm no gun-hating hippie) how many 14 year old kids are actually trained to use a gun? Because of gun control we lost great programs like NRA's Eddie Eagle. We would have a lot more 14 y/o trained to use a firearm if it wasn't for gun control.This story seems to insinuate a few isolated situations prove that gun locks are more of a problem than a solution. I feel like it's pretty one-sided to not also consider that for every one of these situations, there are hundreds of 14 year old kids that would find and play with a parent's gun, endangering themselves and other kids. Again, Eddie Eagle. Kids only play with guns because there is the mystery. Like telling someone not to press the red button. You educate children on firearms, you take the mystery out of them, then they don't want to play with them.Gun locks prevent this. Who is to say that this guy "high on drugs" could not have overpowered the 14 year old girl, taken the gun and shot all the kids, plus a police officer. This is the problem with society today, a majority of them are 'sheep'. Refuse to be a victim. At least if she was over powered she was taking control of her own life, not letting the guy high on drugs do it. You can't use a story like that as an argument against gun control when it could also very easily be an argument for gun control. The argument this story makes is very poor...it's like saying because an airbag killed an old lady, there shouldn't be airbags in cars. Well if she wasn't drunk and got into a crash, the airbag wouldn't have gone off and killed her. Maybe we should make drunk driving illegal...oh wait...it already is.
 
I'm sorry but there's a couple instances shown where having a gun at the ready could have/did save lives, but lets compare that to the number of injuries/lives lost by kids that get into their parents guns because they're not locked up and they don't know how to use them. Why don't we stop blaming the gun, and start blaming the parents for not educating their children on firearms. The odds of a child or their friend in your house getting injured/dying by finding/going to get the unlocked loaded gun are far higher IMO than of an intruder coming in and killing me before I can enter my lock code. (for the record, I have a 4 digit turn lock case and I keep it all entered except one for easy access if I need it quick.) Also, who's to say if little suzie sniper had a gun she'd have stopped the attack? You don't know, no one ever knows, people who fight back still die, not everyone makes it through. Most classes will even tell you that you should expect to be injured or shot. Maybe she'd go in guns blazing and hit everyone but the attacker,So are you saying that you'd, in a moment of panic be able to hit the attacker and not everyone else in the room? maybe she'd...in the moment of panic...forget to turn the safety off, come in, and get stabbed herself and not be alive. Would you forget to turn the safety off?Yeah, there'd be that chance there, but the article would lead one to believe that she'd have come in and saved the day when, for all we know, the guy was so high he'd have been able to get shot and still manage to stab her before he died. It just seems the odds of someone getting hurt by it not being locked up are far greater than the odds of someone getting hurt because I couldn't get my gun out in time.So would you just let the person attack you rather than fight back?
 
it still has an urban legend feel to it. None of those links are news sources.

there was a similar one about a girl in montana who shot 3 illegal mexican immigrants. she was supposed to be 11 years old or something like that. it was an obvious fake story whos intention was anti immigration and show how guns are good.
 
I agree with AWD. I plan to educate my children and eventually take them to the range when I believe they are of age. Like AWD said, you remove the mystery from it. My father has always had guns, but never hunted or anything. We knew where the guns were, how to use them and more importantly not to play with them. You want to put the fear of god into your kids about mishandling a firearm? Take them to the range and put 50 bullets downrange while they're standing right next to you. That may come across as harsh and maybe I'm in the minority here, but I still stand behind that. Your kids won't want to play with your .45 once they realize how big of a boom it makes.

Again, tell them not to the touch the red button and you're in for trouble.

P.S. I did submit the articles to Snopes to see what they come up with. Also, I found a second copy of the second article, by Vin Suprynowicz on ReviewJournal.com.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2006/Jan-08-Sun-2006/news/4951446.html
 
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Great idea, but what happens when the guy trying to rape you is on PCP? It's already been proven that people on neuro-stims are unaffected by tasers. What happens when the 2 prongs miss? So forth and so on.

PCP isn't a stimulant. It's a dissociative.

The whole 'people high on PCP being impervious to bullets/knives/tasers/etc.' really is an urban legend in nearly all cases. Many people who are assumed to be under the influence of PCP are more likely to be severely mentally ill and on PCP.

PCP, because of its dissociative effects, does function as an analgesic, and the sensation of pain can be markedly reduced at high enough doses (it was originally used as an anesthetic). This is where all these stories come from.

PCP is also very rarely used because it does not induce feelings of euphoria in many people. It simply is not found often on the streets. I'm not saying that it doesn't exist. I'm saying that it is very rare to find someone using PCP. Drug users tend to use drugs that make them feel good, not drugs that can induce effects similar to schizophrenia.

Read: http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/pcp3.htm
 
i'm definitely with awd about the whole idiot drivers thing.....

i would bet good money that idiots on the road kill more people and kids, than guns being played with. i had a friend die in school cause he had friends over and got his dad's loaded shotgun out. but i'm still all for 'proper and responsible' gun control.......

i'ld rather see states take driver licenses away from people who are almost legally blind, and yes i know a few who are and do drive and it scares me. let alone lil' old people(no offense) who have ridiculously bad vision
 
PCP isn't a stimulant. It's a dissociative.

The whole 'people high on PCP being impervious to bullets/knives/tasers/etc.' really is an urban legend in nearly all cases. Many people who are assumed to be under the influence of PCP are more likely to be severely mentally ill and on PCP.

PCP, because of its dissociative effects, does function as an analgesic, and the sensation of pain can be markedly reduced at high enough doses (it was originally used as an anesthetic). This is where all these stories come from. Your contradicting yourself. Is it the function as a analgesic or because they are mentally ill? And if this causes a form of schizophrenia, doesn't that make a person mentally ill? Even if it is only temporary?

PCP is also very rarely used because it does not induce feelings of euphoria in many people. It simply is not found often on the streets. I'm not saying that it doesn't exist. I'm saying that it is very rare to find someone using PCP. Drug users tend to use drugs that make them feel good, not drugs that can induce effects similar to schizophrenia.

Read: http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/pcp3.htm
Sorry I ment to say neuro-toxin. This is what makes the person invincible. PCP alters the normal activity of the nervous system in such a way as to cause damage to nervous tissue. This can eventually disrupt or even kill neurons. Tasers are based on the fact that they disrupt the nervous system. As Taser International states "neuromuscular incapacitation". You can't taze someone who's neurons are already messed up.

And I have to disagree with the statments you made above, because people that use this drug are not looking for the euphoria, they are looking for the "out-of-body" experience, where they feel detached from reality, or one's consciousness seems somewhat disconnected from normal reality.

Also behavioural effects can vary by dosage. Small doses produce a numbness in the extremities and intoxication, characterized by staggering, unsteady gait, slurred speech, bloodshot eyes, and loss of balance. Hallucinations and euphoria were also reported infrequently. Moderate doses, will produce analgesia and anesthesia. High doses may lead to convulsions.

The analgesic properties of the drug can cause users to feel less pain, and persist in violent or injurious acts as a result.

Rapper Big Lurch murdered a friend and ate her lungs while on PCP.
 
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i'm definitely with awd about the whole idiot drivers thing.....

i would bet good money that idiots on the road kill more people and kids, than guns being played with. i had a friend die in school cause he had friends over and got his dad's loaded shotgun out. but i'm still all for 'proper and responsible' gun control.......

i'ld rather see states take driver licenses away from people who are almost legally blind, and yes i know a few who are and do drive and it scares me. let alone lil' old people(no offense) who have ridiculously bad vision

Not only that, but the driver's license system and laws that are in place fails as a whole. People who have suspended, revoked, or denied licenses still drive. People that have multiple DWI's still get behind the wheel, and a lot of them still have valid licenses because of shifty-ass lawyers and plea bargains.
The average is that a person who gets busted for a DWI the first time drove 80 times prior before getting caught.

People think driving is a right, it's a privilege. Last time I checked, I didn't see an amendment on driving.
 
Why don't we stop blaming the gun, and start blaming the parents for not educating their children on firearms.
Can a 10 year old go out and buy a gun? No? And why's that....because the law, and society at large, has deemed that a 10 year old isn't competent/responsible enough to own a firearm and make the decisions that come along with that responsibility. Just because a child...and I stress child...has been educated on gun safety does not mean they won't make a stupid decision. It's not blaming the gun, it's realizing that the law is put in place to protect a child.

So are you saying that you'd, in a moment of panic be able to hit the attacker and not everyone else in the room? I'm saying NO ONE can predict how they'd act in a moment of extreme emotional stress unless they're in the moment. I will say that I, as an adult, have a greater ability to control my emotions and process data in a moment of extreme emotion than the vast majority of 14 year old girls. As a teacher I'm going off of personal experience, not guess work

Would you forget to turn the safety off? Again, who knows? However, it's beside the point. My point is any number of things could have happened that would result in that little girl not walking around to tell her story today if she access to that gun, it wouldn't be her saving grace necessarily.

So would you just let the person attack you rather than fight back?
I'm not sure how you came to this question. At no time did I say or even hint that I would, in a life threatening home invasion situation, not fight back. That'd be the point of owning the gun to begin with, to give myself that option. I will not, however, provide my child with a loaded weapon for s/he to have access to whenever they may choose to use it. Beyond them hurting themselves, what happens if they decide to grab my gun to take care of a bully, rob someone, or just plain shoot up a school? Again, I'd hope as a parent I'd instill better judgment/decision making skills in my child but at the end of the day a hormone driven teenager is going to make their own choices...having access to an unlocked, loaded weapon will not be in the cards.
 
The issue isn't pcp using druggies or bad drivers. The issue at hand is gun control, and I think AWD hit it right on the head with this statement: Why don't we stop blaming the gun, and start blaming the parents for not educating their children on firearms What it comes down to (when we're talking about kids here anyways) is bad parenting. If you are going to have a firearm in the same vicinity as a child, the child needs to be educated about them, and not only the safety aspect, either. I have several guns at home, all loaded, most stay in the safe, one in the bedroom. My 3 yr old son, and all my nieces/nephews already know the rules relating to firearms, as they have all been raised in an environment where guns are tools, to be used for recreation only, and have all been to the range or hunting with me many times. I don't think twice about leaving a firearm loaded in the bedroom, because I know my son will has no interest in playing with it. I started him when he was two with his own little plastic dart gun. He already knows, and has informed his playmates, that guns are NOT to be pointed at people, regardless of whether they are fake or not, because it's the principle behind it.

It's a damn shame that we have so many people calling for more trigger locks, gun free zones, weapon bans, etc. And i find, imo, that most people calling for this are just uneducated and ignorant (gun-wise) 'big city folk' as us we refer to them around here. People that have never owned firearms, and are scared to death at the sight of one, solely because of they way they've been portrayed in the media or in their own social circles.
 

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