No like you originally said Haltech the 15 minutes of idleing and then driving usually causes the smoke to pour out too.
Fricken Started SmokinToday...
- Thread starter Haltech
- Start date
No like you originally said Haltech the 15 minutes of idleing and then driving usually causes the smoke to pour out too.
chriscecc914
Member
- :
- 06 MS6
when my car was warmed up it would smoke every time if i idled for more then 10-20 seconds. I left it on once to see if it would go away after a while and more and more plumes just kept coming out. filled up the entire street with a fog.
Well, here's my theory: Since this smoking thing seems to happen mostly on the cars that have had the exhaust system modified, this is what may be happening...
First off there are plenty of guys that say " I had a brand X car with a DP and a cat back exhaust and the turbo never smoked so therefore the turbo in my MS3 must have a bad seal".
But we are talking about a different engine in the Mazdaspeed cars - it's a direct injection engine, and that is worlds apart from a port fueled engine.
The reason that Mazda gets away with such a high boost level on an engine with such high compression is the cooling effect of the fuel being injected directly into the combustion chamber. This quenching action allows for aggressive ignition timing maps which in turn allow high performance and good mileage (relatively speaking).
This is a very delicately balanced system. When one mods their car with CAI's, DP's and removes the cats and mufflers, one has seriously changed the total engine package.
This smoke seems to happen when the car is made to idle for long periods of time. My theory is this: Without the catalytic converters and exhaust system restrictions (read mufflers and resonators) the car, when idled, looses all the combustion chamber heat and starts to have an unburned fuel condition. Since there are no cats to gobble up the smoke, out the tail pipe it goes. If the cat were in place, heat would stay in the combustion chamber and the fuel would be better vaporized and burned.
Also, the CAI's may have a hand in this-they increase air flow and, when coupled with a DP and no cats, increase air flow through the entire engine. Could the engine management system (or brain if you will) detect that, while the throttle is closed, the mass air sensor is showing a slight increase in air flow and the brain bumps up the fuel rate to match it? The combustion chambers are already cooled off from not doing much of anything and then more fuel is added - thus the smoke.
Naturally, the minute you start driving the car the smoke clears and all is well until the next prolonged idling session. This theory is sort of validated by the fact that when the cars are returned to stock, the smoking problem goes away. I believe that the smoke we are talking about is unburned fuel. The amount of smoke we're talking about, if it were oil, would surely show up on the dipstick sooner or later.
I have seen the same phenomenom in the first generation of common rail injection diesel engines. One decides to mod for more HP, changes the engine air flow characteristics and at idle there is profuse smoke!! Actually, it's quite hilarious!!
This is just a theory of mine and what I have told you and $75,000 will get you a cup of coffee on Rodeo Drive, California. Cheers and Merry Christmas all!!!
First off there are plenty of guys that say " I had a brand X car with a DP and a cat back exhaust and the turbo never smoked so therefore the turbo in my MS3 must have a bad seal".
But we are talking about a different engine in the Mazdaspeed cars - it's a direct injection engine, and that is worlds apart from a port fueled engine.
The reason that Mazda gets away with such a high boost level on an engine with such high compression is the cooling effect of the fuel being injected directly into the combustion chamber. This quenching action allows for aggressive ignition timing maps which in turn allow high performance and good mileage (relatively speaking).
This is a very delicately balanced system. When one mods their car with CAI's, DP's and removes the cats and mufflers, one has seriously changed the total engine package.
This smoke seems to happen when the car is made to idle for long periods of time. My theory is this: Without the catalytic converters and exhaust system restrictions (read mufflers and resonators) the car, when idled, looses all the combustion chamber heat and starts to have an unburned fuel condition. Since there are no cats to gobble up the smoke, out the tail pipe it goes. If the cat were in place, heat would stay in the combustion chamber and the fuel would be better vaporized and burned.
Also, the CAI's may have a hand in this-they increase air flow and, when coupled with a DP and no cats, increase air flow through the entire engine. Could the engine management system (or brain if you will) detect that, while the throttle is closed, the mass air sensor is showing a slight increase in air flow and the brain bumps up the fuel rate to match it? The combustion chambers are already cooled off from not doing much of anything and then more fuel is added - thus the smoke.
Naturally, the minute you start driving the car the smoke clears and all is well until the next prolonged idling session. This theory is sort of validated by the fact that when the cars are returned to stock, the smoking problem goes away. I believe that the smoke we are talking about is unburned fuel. The amount of smoke we're talking about, if it were oil, would surely show up on the dipstick sooner or later.
I have seen the same phenomenom in the first generation of common rail injection diesel engines. One decides to mod for more HP, changes the engine air flow characteristics and at idle there is profuse smoke!! Actually, it's quite hilarious!!
This is just a theory of mine and what I have told you and $75,000 will get you a cup of coffee on Rodeo Drive, California. Cheers and Merry Christmas all!!!
Are you serious. We all (no most, because you don't) know why the cars smoke. There is a turbo seal issue. The smoke is a hazy white with tints of blue like oil not black like raw fuel. Some cars loose as much as 1qt of oil every 1250 miles.
Im still waiting for Haltec to confirm this is the type of "white smoke" he is seeing and until then Im sticking to the "its steam" comment albeit with the smart ass reply he gave me I suspect it is as you are describing
So is it a real seal issue? Someone posted(in a diff thread) that the design needed backpressure to work properly and by adding hi-flow catback etc... the backpressure wasnt enough to properly keep the seal... sounds like a long shot to me but hell what do I know I still think its steam
Powerslave
Banned
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- mps 3
same s*** happend to me on friday i was sitting at a light and saw white smoke all around my car figured it was someone else when i drove off it looked like it was my car so i pulled in and no smoke? and hasn't come back
Powerslave
Banned
- :
- mps 3
Im still waiting for Haltec to confirm this is the type of "white smoke" he is seeing and until then Im sticking to the "its steam" comment albeit with the smart ass reply he gave me I suspect it is as you are describing
So is it a real seal issue? Someone posted(in a diff thread) that the design needed backpressure to work properly and by adding hi-flow catback etc... the backpressure wasnt enough to properly keep the seal... sounds like a long shot to me but hell what do I know I still think its steam
ok heres is how you tell... if you see a light steam comeing out of your tail pipe thats not it.. if you see bellows of THICK white smoke coming out thats it, you will know if its the turbo
+1
This is white/blueish smoke that people are seeing, not black, unburnt fuel smoke. I don't really know why people are still "guessing" as to what the problem is. Mazda already has a revised turbo with different seals and different part number and has replaced many defective turbos which eliminated the problem.
Seems to me there is no doubt what the problem is. There are stock turbos out there with leaking seals > Mazda has a replacement turbo > if your seals leak, go to Mazda and get it replaced. Problem solved.
Sucks to hear that happened to you Haltech but at least you're still under warranty and should be getting a brand new turbo. Let us know how the trip to the dealer turns out.
Im still waiting for Haltec to confirm this is the type of "white smoke" he is seeing and until then Im sticking to the "its steam" comment albeit with the smart ass reply he gave me I suspect it is as you are describing
So is it a real seal issue? Someone posted(in a diff thread) that the design needed backpressure to work properly and by adding hi-flow catback etc... the backpressure wasnt enough to properly keep the seal... sounds like a long shot to me but hell what do I know I still think its steam
All you will ever receive from me is a smart ass comment since you believe in your " steam " theory.
Thanks bro, i appreciate it. More documentation for the vehicle history. Give you that much more credit when you go to mod the car, you will get less s*** from the dealer.
I wonder why this hasn't garnered a recall from Mazda if indeed these turbos are letting oil into the combustion chamber.
If they'd admit somethings wrong and get on it right away, they'd save themselves the cost of replacing a catalytic converter in the process.
If the EPA gets involved, thats exactly what will happen if they determine that the catalyts were poisioned by the oil.
You know, the EPA eats cases like this up!!! It'll be interesting to see if, after a new turbo is installed, does the turbo smoking stop and stay that way. Anyone who gets a new turbo (especially someone with a modded exhaust system) needs let us know periodically how it's going. Has a lot to do with whether Mazda gets to sell me a new car in the future. I don't mind them making a mistake as long as they make good on the car. Too many other turbo cars on the market to accept Mazda being a bad player here...
If they'd admit somethings wrong and get on it right away, they'd save themselves the cost of replacing a catalytic converter in the process.
If the EPA gets involved, thats exactly what will happen if they determine that the catalyts were poisioned by the oil.
You know, the EPA eats cases like this up!!! It'll be interesting to see if, after a new turbo is installed, does the turbo smoking stop and stay that way. Anyone who gets a new turbo (especially someone with a modded exhaust system) needs let us know periodically how it's going. Has a lot to do with whether Mazda gets to sell me a new car in the future. I don't mind them making a mistake as long as they make good on the car. Too many other turbo cars on the market to accept Mazda being a bad player here...
The oil isn't being burned it is leaking out the back of the turbo into the exhaust. I am sure Mazda will not make it a recall unless someone else like Borg Warner is paying for the bad turbos. If the car is stock your chances of seeing this are slim. If you modded it then they don't have to cover it at all.
Well, I've been checking my oil level and it hasn't changed. But my car is stone cold stock. If the turbo on it was f'ing up I'd never know it.
I checked my brothers' 335i BMW today and his tail pipes are sooted up too; he claims he has to clean them up all the time, so it's starting to look like these DI engines let plenty of fuel get by. Or, he may have a PAIR of smoking turbos to deal with!
The used oil analysis section of www.bobistheoilguy.com shows fuel dilution issues on the few UOAs that are posted for Mazdaspeed cars. I wonder if the pre and post O2 sensors would eventually catch up to a turbo that was spilling oil into the exhaust (and directly in the cats) and set a CEL.
Maybe Mazda figures the DI will put enough fuel into the exhaust system to cut the oil being dumped into it by the turbo and enable the cats to gobble all that smoke up with no problems. Be interesting to see how this plays out.
I checked my brothers' 335i BMW today and his tail pipes are sooted up too; he claims he has to clean them up all the time, so it's starting to look like these DI engines let plenty of fuel get by. Or, he may have a PAIR of smoking turbos to deal with!
The used oil analysis section of www.bobistheoilguy.com shows fuel dilution issues on the few UOAs that are posted for Mazdaspeed cars. I wonder if the pre and post O2 sensors would eventually catch up to a turbo that was spilling oil into the exhaust (and directly in the cats) and set a CEL.
Maybe Mazda figures the DI will put enough fuel into the exhaust system to cut the oil being dumped into it by the turbo and enable the cats to gobble all that smoke up with no problems. Be interesting to see how this plays out.
