four codes, possible fuse box- system malfunction- car can't start, help!

[twelveinch]

I'm a heavy poster over at ************ and I thought I post this here to if anyone could shine some light:


OK guys, I posted this thread in the modifications but I thought I should post it here too.

We finished my speed a couple days ago, my tune was set for this Tuesday, and since that time the car was being driven slowly to "break some of these parts in". I was using the Dashhwk to monitor everything and everything was perfectly fine: fuel pressure, adv. timing, throttle, etc... everything was running like when the car was stock.... for the most part.

Nevertheless, yesterday, I thought I would finish my angel eyes. I had the fuse go out on the angel eyes which I have everything in the fuse box and under the fuse box. Well, when I was done, I went to start the car and the car keep turning but it wouldn't start.

a) a this point I was showing for codes on the Dashhawk, the malfunction indicator light didn't go on, the fuel pump was working, etc....

b) sorry I don't remember the codes but the first code was:

code1: P2128 (TP) sensor/Switch E circuit high input
code2: P21?? unknown
code3: P???? actuator
code4: P???? something to do with fuel pump rail 1 or something

The reason I can't get the exact numbers is because I can't get the Dashhawk to connect. When I connect it tells me to input vehicles specific PID's and when I do it gives the following error:

"ERROR: CAN communication not found. Either the ignition is not on or the vehicle does not support CAN communication"

The CAN error and the malfunction indicator inside the car happened after a few hours when the car wouldn't turn but tried too. Meaning, as the day progressed things got worse, a whole lot worse.

All the work before this horror happened was around the fuse box. Don't ask how, but the blue lever harness going into the fuse box is stuck and won't come out as well? WTF? When my buddy came by we disconnected everything- throttle senors, ecu, grounding kits, etc waited about twenty minutes and connected everything back.... nothing. Then, we proceeded to move around the cables underneath the fuse box as it is highly susceptible that one of the pins from that harness/relays came lose/undone...then I also left the battery unplugged for about an hour.... when we connected the battery back up (after it was disconnected off and on a few times to troubleshoot) I got the malfunction key indicator light and when I go turn on the ignition- nothing- it beeps, but when the key turns the fuel pump won't go on and when the car is started it's silent.

So, troubleshooting 101:

I checked all the fused yesterday, inside the engine compartment and inside the car, and all are in tact. The next thing to do is check all the relays.

I will have to somehow get that fuse box blue lever harness out and checked to make sure none of the pins got bend or fried. Then, I will have to check the ECU pins (160) of them for continuity- see if the resistance is off as that will tell me whether or not the ECU is fried... but this is highly unlikely. The worse case scenario, yes, but what it could also be is that the ECU lost its codes later at night too when the battery was being disconnected a few times.

Is there some type of fuse (on any of the harnesses) or some master shut off switch? The reason I ask is because when my friend's SABB wouldn't start (everyone thought it was the starter/battery) after those got replaced we learned that on the positive battery terminal there is a switch that was popped due to overload...and all we had to do was push it back in.

Any help would be greatly and highly appreciated it.
Thank you,
Sebastian

 

[AutoEuphoria]

Battery in backwards? Stupid, maybe...but not hard to do. Check that. Sorry about your luck...I HATE electrical issues.

 

[Bravnik]

There are two fuse panels. One in the engine bay the other is under the dash on the passenger side. You probably blew a fuse in the one under the dash.

EDIT: Ah I see you checked the ones in the car. I would suggest checking them again. Also, I fried my main wiring harness when a Coil blew in my car. It blew a big fuse under the dash (30Amp one) and I could not see my CAN bus as well as all the lights on the dash lit up. I would still say you toasted a fuse, I would double check.

 

[twelveinch]

Thanks for getting back to me guys. Bravnik, the fuse that you blue that prevented you from getting CAN communications- where was it located?

Under the glove box, aside from the fuses in the rows, are there more fuses somewhere else? Perhaps, on the harness somewhere? Further up (closer) the the firewall?

Aside from blown fuses and relays (which I will be checking tomorrow) I have a strong feeling it's the mini harness going into the fuse box. I have absolutely no idea how it happened that the whole harness level got stuck in there.....

I was looking through the service manual of the regular 3 and it said that the harness cables have to be in tight and that if they move even slightly check them... well, viola, the cables on the mini harness going into the fuse box (from top) move fairly easy... and the fact that the harness is stuck in there- tells me one or more pins got fried and that's causing it not to come out.

The problem to diagnose this further is complicated because in a 6 hour time period things kept getting worse:

1) The car wouldn't start but I did get engine rotation, CAN communication, harness from fuse box would come out, fuel pump working and only four codes

2) The car would only click when trying to start it as if the battery had no charge (it was fully charged and I even used a second battery), fuel pump working

3) CAN communication kept going on/off and I believe it was around somewhere here that that we didn't even hear the fuel pump go on

4) The malfunction indicator light came on flashing (owner's manual states it's a system malfunction) and obviously it could be a fuse/relay and or short somewhere on the wire harness....

5) At this point, no CAN communication, not even a click when the key is turned- all silence, no fuel pump whinnying, etc but all the other electrical systems works: Dash, lights, radio, etc

 

[Bravnik]

There are 2 fuse boxes. One in the engine bay and one on the passenger side below the dash. The one on the passenger side is where my fuse blew and is where the fuses that control CAN/Ignition etc are located.

The Mazda tech overlooked a blown fuse two times before he found it and is why I suggest you look closer. When my harness fried we knew it was an electrical issue due to the smoke and smell. If you didn't see smoke and didn't smell electrical burning, then odds are its a fuse and you simply overlooked it.

However, if this is not the case and you did smell electrical burning and saw smoke, then you may have fried the harness. Mine was melted together in a big mass of fused together wires. $3500 worth of damage. So I hope that's not the case for you.

 

[twelveinch]

Good news it's not as bad as I feared for now

Alright, well I did further testing, re-checked all the relays and fuses, and everything checks out. I tested the starter motor for voltage (the thick red wire that goes into the starter solenoid) and the cable is getting voltage. I checked voltage across the positive battery terminal and the alternator and it was reading 12V. No burned harness, no corrosion on any of the terminals no short circuits anywhere. I am 100% sure the ECU isn't damaged but once I get my hands on the shop repair manual later next week- I will have this confirmed.

So what's the problem? The immobilizer!

Inserting the key into the ignition and not even able to get the car to crank nor hear the solenoid click confirms that the immobilizer was activated. The key inside a car that keeps flashing when the key is either in the "on" or "acc" position keeps flashing and that means the immobilizer was activated which in the owner's manual refers to as a system malfunction.

Contacting a Mazda dealer in general confirmed that due to the immobilizer being activated could also be preventing the OBD II from working or getting any CAN communication. Obviously, the dealer won't tell me if Mazdaspeed3 vehicles have a master switch to deactivate it or will they tell me how to deactivate it for obvious reasons.

At the current moment I will wait until the manual arrives and see if de-activation of the immobilizer is something I could do myself or in fact it needs to be taken into the dealer to either a) be replaced and recoded or b) recoded.

 

[matsuda]

Alright, well I did further testing, re-checked all the relays and fuses, and everything checks out. I tested the starter motor for voltage (the thick red wire that goes into the starter solenoid) and the cable is getting voltage. I checked voltage across the positive battery terminal and the alternator and it was reading 12V. No burned harness, no corrosion on any of the terminals no short circuits anywhere. I am 100% sure the ECU isn't damaged but once I get my hands on the shop repair manual later next week- I will have this confirmed.

So what's the problem? The immobilizer!

Inserting the key into the ignition and not even able to get the car to crank nor hear the solenoid click confirms that the immobilizer was activated. The key inside a car that keeps flashing when the key is either in the "on" or "acc" position keeps flashing and that means the immobilizer was activated which in the owner's manual refers to as a system malfunction.

Contacting a Mazda dealer in general confirmed that due to the immobilizer being activated could also be preventing the OBD II from working or getting any CAN communication. Obviously, the dealer won't tell me if Mazdaspeed3 vehicles have a master switch to deactivate it or will they tell me how to deactivate it for obvious reasons.

At the current moment I will wait until the manual arrives and see if de-activation of the immobilizer is something I could do myself or in fact it needs to be taken into the dealer to either a) be replaced and recoded or b) recoded.

After you turn the key to the on position (and if there is a problem with the immobilizer system), one of 2 things will happen:

1) The security light will flash.
2) The security light will remain on.

Then, after approx. 1 minute, a trouble code may be displayed by the security light. There are 9 different flashing patterns: 11, 12, 13, 14 15, 16, 21, 22, and 23.

For example 13: flash-pause-flash-flash-flash-long pause...(repeat)
For example 21: flash-flash-pause-flash-long pause...(repeat)

Are you able to read a code from the security light?

 

[twelveinch]

After you turn the key to the on position (and if there is a problem with the immobilizer system), one of 2 things will happen:

1) The security light will flash.
2) The security light will remain on.

Then, after approx. 1 minute, a trouble code may be displayed by the security light. There are 9 different flashing patterns: 11, 12, 13, 14 15, 16, 21, 22, and 23.

For example 13: flash-pause-flash-flash-flash-long pause...(repeat)
For example 21: flash-flash-pause-flash-long pause...(repeat)

Are you able to read a code from the security light?

When I get in the car, the key flash flashes normally. When I insert the key and turn the ignition to the "on" position is keeps flashing normally- it keeps flashing like as if the key was not inserted or when the car is turned off and the alarm is activated.

When I insert the key and turn the key to the "acc" position the key lights up, stays lit for about sec or two and then starts to flash extremely fast.

As far as the pattern goes- (since I had no idea about it) it could be that it was flashing some patter because if I remember correctly when I turn the key to the "on" position it was flashing periodically but it could have also been flashing one of the patterns.

I am going to go to the car now and insert the key and leave it in the "on" position and I will leave like that for a min and see if I get a code next to it.

I will also see if there's any pattern to it when flashing in the "on" position.

On one of the other forums this guy had a similar problem to me (two out of the four codes) were the same and his car wouldn't start either. His problem however was the car died while driving- eventually after troubleshooting for ever he took it to the dealer and got his ECU re-flashed.

I'm going to check again with the keys but I'm positive it's going to need a re-flash.

 

[twelveinch]

OK. I just got back and nothing. When one or the other key is in the "on" position the key flashes every two seconds like it always did. When I turn one or the other keys into the "acc" the key flashes very rapidly. I left the key in the "on" position for a minute even two and nothing changes the flash keeps flashing every two seconds.

I got this from another member but it was regarding MS3 specific:



Okay -here are the instructions..

(The timing is critical to this procedure, please read through the entire procedure before attempting )

1. Insert one of the pre-programmed transponder keys and turn the ignition to "on", leave on for at least one second ( wait until the red key symbol in the instrument cluster extinguishes), remove the key from the ignition.


2. Within 5 seconds insert the second pre-programmed key and turn the ignition to "on" for at least one second but no more than 5 seconds (use the key symbol for this as well) then remove the second key.


3. Within 10 seconds insert the new key in the ignition and turn the ignition to "on", if you are successful the red key symbol will illuminate then extinguish after about a second.

If you are not successful the red key symbol will flash repeatedly to indicate that you have inserted an invalid key. Remove the key, wait a minute and try it again, it took me a few times to get it perfect and I had done it before.




At this point I highly doubt this is something I could do from my end. I highly think it needs a re-flash. Just to be more secure I will wait until I get the repair manual to make sure the ECU isn't fried and check everything else that the manual suggest. Even though I know the ECU isn't fried it's well worth a check before going to the dealer and saying it just needs a re-flash....

I will remove all my wiring for the angel eyes, turbo timer and indi fog lights mod and borrow headlights from my buddy along with a shifter boot base (as I have a switch there for the angel eyes) this way there's a better chance the re-flash could be done under warranty.

 

[twelveinch]

Alright, well, I just called one of the Mazda dealers in the burbs and told the guy straight up that my car is heavily modded which still has warranty on it since it wasn't voided yet.

I told him exactly what is wrong with the car and he was really good at listening and explaining what they would have to do assuming that's what's wrong with the car.

Bottom line: it's going to need a diagnostic run which is under 100 bucks, the ECU re-flash is 125 and re-programing of the keys around 110 or 225 for the last two if needed.

I will talk to this gent in person on Monday and see if he could take care of this under warranty if so he'll be rewarded nicely.

 

[twelveinch]

Talked to a few service guys from Mazda and it seems I'm going to need a diagnostic check/scan, ECU re-flash and most likely re-programming of the keys- that is why they need the whole car. I found a good dealer that will take care of this under-warranty as I am not removing any of my mods- confirmation of this will be on Monday. I hope it goes well and I HOPE HOPE that's the only thing the car needs to get it running again.

 

[twelveinch]

Tomorrow the car is going to the dealer and HOPEFULLY this issue(s) will be solved. A also got my hands on the repair/service manual and did some digging and everything returns to connecting the car up to the M-MDS!

I also checked the reprogramming of the keys that was posted above and by accident I have noticed the following:

1) When either of the keys is inserted and turned to the "on" position the key indicator flashes rapidly for a minute and then disappears for about 3 seconds. Then, after those three seconds I get one normal flash, disappears for about a second or two and then I get six normal flashes and it disappears again for a sec or two...followed by one flash... and the whole pattern repeats itself over and over and over.

2) When I try to start the engine- the only relay that clicks is the heater relay? WTF? How, why?

3) When I plug the Dashhawk into the OBD it checks for Mazda PID's and when it can't find them it gives me the error message that the vehicles VIN was not found or that the car is not on; that there's no CAN communication.

4) All the lights, alarm, locks, sound, etc work but just that.

I honestly hope that all it needs a re-flash, deactivation of the immobilizer, and re-programming of the key. I hope nothing else is damaged---like the ECU.

I'll keep you guys posted if you know anything please fill in.

 

[matsuda]

1) When either of the keys is inserted and turned to the "on" position the key indicator flashes rapidly for a minute and then disappears for about 3 seconds. Then, after those three seconds I get one normal flash, disappears for about a second or two and then I get six normal flashes and it disappears again for a sec or two...followed by one flash... and the whole pattern repeats itself over and over and over.

See my previous post.

From your description, it sounds like code "16" is being displayed by the security light.

I don't have the service manual in front of me at the moment to look it up.

 

[matsuda]

Code 16 - Communication error between the instrument cluster (which incorporates the immobilizer) and the ECU.

The instrument cluster/immobilizer seems to be working normally but the ECU is MIA.

 

[twelveinch]

Tha BEAST is up and running!!!!

Alright, well, Monday morning I had the car towed to a trust worthy Mazda dealer and 6 hours later and a 110 dollar bill (got lucky and found a hook up) the car is up and running.

The ECU was completely wiped clean and re-flashed with new "as is" data- few of the connectors where snuggled here and there to make sure the connections were really tight and bam, the car started.

I honestly believe the ECU had this coming for months now and it was just a matter of time and I am also glad I got the ECU completely wiped and re-programmed" with the new "as is" data that Mazda tech lines gave to the techs.

When we finished building this car, I was driving it for about a week, and I was only averaging 14-15MPG and it took almost 80 miles to get that MPG rating. Before I got that rating, at about 20 miles and up to 45, I was averaging about 7-10....MPG.

Well, once I pulled out from the dealer Monday evening, it only took 9 miles if not less for the ECU to start calculating the current MPG and I was already doing 20-21MPG...

Mind you, that I have not seen 20 or above MPG since before winter- around November. Through winter and after, I was just averaging 16-18..

So, I dunno, the techs and my tuner find it weird too. At this point I believe the ECU stock map have adjusted to what is on the engine now because it was pretty much re-flashed and/or re-coded with what's currently in the engine.

Anyways, what a week this has been. I'm glad it's over and done with and my car now is getting "juiced" up by one of the greatest tuners

Look for the historical and documented thread of this demon- as we all worked day in day out, pushed the car back and forth about hundreds of times when it had a boo-boo, the energy and time put into this by all of us was well worth it- coming soon!

Phase one of three will be completed Wednesday. Phase two begins next summer. Full info will be in the build thread and on the website.

Thanks to all the users who provided me with help!
-Sebastian

 

[mikeross]

I had the same problem back then.. And the diagnosis of the car dealer was that my alternators were going bad. Needs to be replaced. Geesh..