Eaton s/c again...need boost gurus' help

[turbo740]

Okay,

More questions regarding the feasibility of supercharging.

I've settled on an Eaton M45 s/c. I think that's all the displacement I'll need for the power gain I'm looking for.

I wanted to use a Rising Rate regulator like the BEGI style but I'm concerned about whether it can step up fast enough to match the boost curve of the screw-type supercharger. Any ideas?

I'm going to try to locate the s/c beneath the stock intake manifold, laying on its side, with an extra inlet and outlet manifold that will interface with the stock airbox and the stock intake manifold. This way, no replacement of the factory manifold is necessary and the supercharger could theoretically be bypassed easily if necessary. Any input? (This is partially due to the fact that I'm no good at welding aluminum and my fiberglass intake manifold prototype definitely won't hold up under boost for very long...as well as having no flow bench to see if my runner sizing is correct.)

It will be driven by a longer version of the stock serpentine belt. Anybody see any drawbacks to this setup?

I will be looking for about 6lbs of boost. How have the turbo kits held up with 6psi as far as detonation goes? I don't think an intercooler will be necessary because of the nature of the supercharger. The intake charge temp should stay much lower than with a turbo. Again, tips are appreciated.

I'm sure more questions will arise as development progresses. I appreciate everyone's input...even those who will say "Just go turbo and save the aggravation." Jackson racing/Moss Motors says they won't even think about going into design/production with an Eaton based kit until the car has been produced for at least 4 years. That gives me plenty of time to finish my kit and install it (after the warranty runs out)!

 

[macklum]

Try Area 51 ,You can get the # from Wings West as Area 51 did WW Protege .

 

[turbo740]

As far as I understand, Area 51 will build me a Centrifugal supercharger kit. If I wanted that type of boost curve, I'd go with a turbo. Add to that the fact that I'm on the East coast and couldn't bring my car to Area 51 and I'm back to square 1. Thanks for the tip, though.

 

[spoolinmp3]

I wanted to use a Rising Rate regulator like the BEGI style but I'm concerned about whether it can step up fast enough to match the boost curve of the screw-type supercharger. Any ideas?

Yes any FMU can add sufficient fuel to a S charger application. Actually a supercharger will not provide that much greater boost onset vs a turbo, so yes it will work

I will be looking for about 6lbs of boost. How have the turbo kits held up with 6psi as far as detonation goes? I don't think an intercooler will be necessary because of the nature of the supercharger. The intake charge temp should stay much lower than with a turbo. Again, tips are appreciated.

Get an intercooler if you can. Thats pretty much a myth that a superchargers intake charge is much cooler than a turbo's, the simple law of thermodynamics state's that compressing air will heat it up, both turbo's and superchargers do this.
If you really do not want to intercool dont go over 5psi

I'm sure more questions will arise as development progresses. I appreciate everyone's input...even those who will say "Just go turbo and save the aggravation." Jackson racing/Moss Motors says they won't even think about going into design/production with an Eaton based kit until the car has been produced for at least 4 years. That gives me plenty of time to finish my kit and install it (after the warranty runs out)!

Hey atleast you will be different

 

[turbo740]

Thanks spoolin'. If I could afford your stage 3 kit, I'd be there!(bowdown) Who knows, if this whole thing goes south, maybe I'll be "spoolin" my way to the darkside too.

I will definitely look into adding an intercooler to the mix. Do you think the huge front mounted i/c is necessary or will a smaller one like my VW or Saab intercoolers suffice? I'm trying to stick pretty close to 6 psi, no more than 7 max.

Also, any opinion on if the M45 will flow enough (320cfm) to make a decent power gain? What kind of CFM ratings are your turbo systems running at 6 psi? I'm more of a "eyeball it, put it together, and see if it works" type of guy instead of "plan, do the math, put it in ACAD, make sure works in a 3D model, and throw it on the ol' CNC."

Thanks again for the help. This is a long term project but I already have a brand spankin' new M45 s/c and I can't wait to fit it to something...and all the other cars are turbos!!! Rats(bang)

 

[melicha8]

Won't the supercharger on the stock manifold f&$^ up the VITCS butterfly valves?

 

[spoolinmp3]

Also, any opinion on if the M45 will flow enough (320cfm) to make a decent power gain? What kind of CFM ratings are your turbo systems running at 6 psi? I'm more of a "eyeball it, put it together, and see if it works" type of guy instead of "plan, do the math, put it in ACAD, make sure works in a 3D model, and throw it on the ol' CNC."

I think the m45 will be sufficient for our motors. Our t3 see similar cfm ratings. Unsure what its at around 6psi but I know they flow 515cfm at 14psi of boost. I will have to look at the comressor maps.

As for how we selected the turbo's we looked at compressor maps and what everybody else was running with 2.0 liter motors. I also got some opinions from the turbo guru's and took that into consideration. In my opinion the turbo's we are running are awesome for street use. They start making boost at 2000 rpm and reach full boost onset by 2800 rpm. They dont run out of steam until about 6.7 grand. We dabbled with the idea of t28's and came to the conclusion that they were to small and the t3/t4 hybrid would be good for race applications but a little laggy for most people's taste's for street driving.

 

[turbo740]

Thomas Knight s/c kit for Probe.

Won't the supercharger on the stock manifold f&$^ up the VITCS butterfly valves?

I'm not sure. That's a good question...but why would it if the turbos don't??? The boost pressure will be similar. Not sure why there would be any different effects on the butterflies.

I also got an e-mail from Thomas Knight turbos who sent me pics of the Eaton S/C setup on a 2.0 Probe. Any recommendations as to the quality of their work? I may try to buy just the intake manifold from them as it is an adapted stock manifold from the looks of it, with the supercharger bolted onto a modded section of super short pieces of the stock runners. Saves me the hassle of welding aluminum (which, I think I mentioned, I'm absolutely horrible at (sad1)

Spoolin' and others, I really appreciate your time. I know how busy most of you guys are helping the rest of us go fast. I also wasn't aware that your kit was producing good boost at such a low RPM.(rockon) Now more seriously considering turbo and saving the Eaton for yet another project...

 

[Captain KRM P5]

I have heard a few bad things about Thomas Knight turbos, shotty workmanship, etc. Mostly from people at shows, word of mouth from my local shop, etc.

 

[spoolinmp3]

turbo740 hey no prob man, I am in this for the love of it...it just so happens that it will be my primary source of income. If there is one way I can really help you it will be this.......do not buy thomas knights garbage. He is located here in miami and is the joke of the town. Basically he is a con-man. He will sell you garbage

 

[spoolinmp3]

I also loike to state that I would never talk bad about a supplier or manufacturer.....but I have seen Knights work first hand and I dont know how he could sell the stuff. He butchers the raw metal and sells it to unsuspecting customers. He has ripped alot of people and thats why I am saying something about it


STAY AWAY!!!!!

 

[spoolinmp3]

or manufacturer.....but I have seen Knights work first hand and I dont know how he could sell the stuff. He butchers the raw metal and sells it to unsuspecting customers. He has ripped alot of people and thats why I am saying something about it


STAY AWAY!!!!!

 

[turbo740]

Thanks everyone. That answers that. Appreciate the input. I'll let you know when I make some progress.

 

[LinuxRacr]

If you want to know why Thomas Knight's kits are trash:

Click Here

 

[DeathKnight]

I'll add to this a bit as well.

First, an introduction into this forum. My name is Eric. I'm a moderator for the 2.0 Forums on ProbeTalk.

I've worked on TKT turbo kits for the 2.5L KL. Yes, they suck.
I've also talked with the owner of the company personally. He seems to be a good guy, it's truely odd. He knows mostly what he's talking about. I don't understand why he produces such worthless "kits."

Here's two more pictures of that S/C kit:
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/eduelfer/Super2.jpg
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/eduelfer/Super.jpg

There's a lot of things he does not address with it still. Fueling is up to you and you have to locate the s/c and send it to him. Doesn't make much sense his way in any case. Best bet if this was your goal would be to buy just the manifold from him and do the rest of the kit yourself. If you were so inclined you could also use an intake manifold off an earlier FS (Probe/MX6) and make the manifold from it. The advantage with this is that you could maintain your injectors and fuel rail.

 

[turbo740]

I spoke to TKT about a manifold (although the welds look fairly crappy...) He's looking for $1800 just for a manifold!!! That seems a little (a lot, actually) steep to me. Heck, I could have Spoolin's entry level kit on the car for not much more than that! I'm going to make one in mild steel with a port-a-MIG and see how it comes out. If it's bad or it leaks, I'll use the 2.0 intake and have the local shop modify it with an aluminum plenum area for the s/c to bolt on to. Now trying to decide between liquid intercooler between the s/c and plenum or water injection...

 

[spoolinmp3]

I would liquid intercool it.......damn thats expensive

 

[LinuxRacr]

I'll add to this a bit as well.

First, an introduction into this forum. My name is Eric. I'm a moderator for the 2.0 Forums on ProbeTalk.

I've worked on TKT turbo kits for the 2.5L KL. Yes, they suck.
I've also talked with the owner of the company personally. He seems to be a good guy, it's truely odd. He knows mostly what he's talking about. I don't understand why he produces such worthless "kits."

Here's two more pictures of that S/C kit:
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/eduelfer/Super2.jpg
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/eduelfer/Super.jpg

There's a lot of things he does not address with it still. Fueling is up to you and you have to locate the s/c and send it to him. Doesn't make much sense his way in any case. Best bet if this was your goal would be to buy just the manifold from him and do the rest of the kit yourself. If you were so inclined you could also use an intake manifold off an earlier FS (Probe/MX6) and make the manifold from it. The advantage with this is that you could maintain your injectors and fuel rail.

Hey man! welcome to the site man!! I remember you from Probe Talk.

 

[turbo740]

Expensive is right...but probably worth it as evaporative cooling seems to be pretty efficient. The liquid cooler isn't a problem...the pump probably isn't a problem...it's the damn heat exchanger itself that is big $$$.

 

[DeathKnight]

Hey man! welcome to the site man!! I remember you from Probe Talk.

Thank you.

That's very expensive. I agree. Custom might be a much better option then. Take into account that our (Probe/MX6) IMs will bolt up so they can be used. (They'd be cheap at a junkyard) We do not have any sort of varaible intake control. That would then be absent from your application.

Another aspect of custom allows you to provide for runner lengths. An aspect generally overlooked I think, but it holds some importance.

Even another option would be to incorporate a centrifugal S/C instead of a roots blower. This can be easily intercooled as well. In my case it would be easiest to put it where the a/c was (as I've already removed mine).

Just some thoughts.