Do the DSM'ers have a pt.

[spacemonkey]

Hey XodusPhD,

Thats true...it is a stock protege 2.0L engine. They upgraded the clutch plate. The truth is the Iron Block can handle the turbo fine...except the pistons. You need new piston if you are running a high boost. Thats why the fatory boost is only like 6 psi compared to the 26 psi boost on SRT Neon...same turbo but the pistons are diffrent. You are going to have to get forged piston and a bigger inner-cooler. Thats what I've been discussing with my friend. It handles stock boost fine.

Oh plus rumor is the tranny isnt that good either...but its a hell lot better than Mitsubishi because not matter what you do to it its still a mitsubishi...that includes the EVO8 (fine vehicle but its still a mitsubishi). Your right the new eclispe blows...Im all for the 99...with the black housing...but I was never cool with the "hump" in the hood.

 

[jred321]

Hey XodusPhD,

Thats true...it is a stock protege 2.0L engine. They upgraded the clutch plate. The truth is the Iron Block can handle the turbo fine...except the pistons. You need new piston if you are running a high boost. Thats why the fatory boost is only like 6 psi compared to the 26 psi boost on SRT Neon...same turbo but the pistons are diffrent. You are going to have to get forged piston and a bigger inner-cooler. Thats what I've been discussing with my friend. It handles stock boost fine.

Oh plus rumor is the tranny isnt that good either...but its a hell lot better than Mitsubishi because not matter what you do to it its still a mitsubishi...that includes the EVO8 (fine vehicle but its still a mitsubishi). Your right the new eclispe blows...Im all for the 99...with the black housing...but I was never cool with the "hump" in the hood.

was this confusing to anyone else?
1) our rods are our weak point, not pistons (although they aren't great, but the rods will snap before the pistons go)
2) the srt isn't boosting 26psi, i think it's 16, maybe a wrong key hit?
3) the srt shares its turbo with no car, it is a variant of the mitsu 16g found in past evo's, but it's unique to the srt
4) an inner-cooler?
5) mitsu trannies are just as bad as mazda ones, they both suck
6) the hump in the hood is there for a reason
now 1-4 could have been completely wrong because i have no idea what car was actually being talked about, but i assumed it was the msp

 

[jaymode]

the srt boosts lower than 16psi i think because on srtforums.com i read about people setting their mbc's at 15 psi

 

[MazdaDryvr]

uhh, I actually never read his post so I can't really comment on the errors. My attention never left his sig. :drool:

 

[Flat Black]

Hey XodusPhD,

Thats true...it is a stock protege 2.0L engine. They upgraded the clutch plate. The truth is the Iron Block can handle the turbo fine...except the pistons. You need new piston if you are running a high boost. Thats why the fatory boost is only like 6 psi compared to the 26 psi boost on SRT Neon...same turbo but the pistons are diffrent. You are going to have to get forged piston and a bigger inner-cooler. Thats what I've been discussing with my friend. It handles stock boost fine.

Even if the SRT was boosting 26 psi, and running 230 whp thats not very effecient. You see, our turbo setup really dies out around 16-18 psi. If we were able to run 26 psi of boost, we'd be out running the Neons. JoeP was running 21 psi with race fuel and FCD and his MBC at put out 261 whp at the dyno. What does that mean. While our car might not be a straight line contendor for the SRT4 everything is more effecient for the power we are making. I mean the SRT4 has a larger motor, turbo and FMIC and only pulling out maybe 220 whp? Thats not to effecient.

 

[spacemonkey]

was this confusing to anyone else?
1) our rods are our weak point, not pistons (although they aren't great, but the rods will snap before the pistons go)
2) the srt isn't boosting 26psi, i think it's 16, maybe a wrong key hit?
3) the srt shares its turbo with no car, it is a variant of the mitsu 16g found in past evo's, but it's unique to the srt
4) an inner-cooler?
5) mitsu trannies are just as bad as mazda ones, they both suck
6) the hump in the hood is there for a reason
now 1-4 could have been completely wrong because i have no idea what car was actually being talked about, but i assumed it was the msp

Sorry guys it is a typo I ment 16 psi. Damn you didnt have to rip me a new asshole...I'm just repeating what I heard. Pretty damn harsh on me.

yes, its not the pistons but the rods.
yes, the tranny is pretty horrible.

But I still think the tranny is better than an eclispe. I believe it was either eopinons or edmunds that says the SRT was running the Garrett T25 turbocharger. that might be wrong info too. Either way we can all agree the boost is higher that the MSP. Flat Black was right if it does run a higher boost, who cares? Its not efficient. Both cars were about the same price so if I really thought the Neon SRT was better I would have bought it. I'm still sticking next to my MSP over any Neon or Eclispe.

Oh thanks for lowering my self-esteem jred321!

 

[jred321]

my post wasn't attacking, just lessening the incorrect information. i don't see why that would lower your self esteem

 

[Black Majik MSP]

Don't forget Galant VR4s in the list of DSMs (my personal favorite).

Two of my friends have done hybrid 1st gen/2nd gen setups running 25+ psi & they are really sweet. However, if a DSM guy ever says that MSPs are somehow inferior, all you have to remember is 1 word: CRANKWALK!

 

[jred321]

crankwalk is far less common than everyone thinks, it's just that it really sucks when it happens so it gets a lot of publicity. the gvr4 is sweet, even though it wasn't built in normal like the rest, they were imported. plus their platform was around before the dsm union existed, so they are kinda like the parents to t/e/l's
and to solve the crankwalk issue, just start out with a 6 bolt then you have a lighter car, better motor, and it doesn't look so much like a chick car.
edit: i love how this thread has been hijacked

 

[XodusPhD]

HAHA!!

I love the hijack too! and so i will continue it! LOL!

Everyone settle down dammit, sit back, get wesley pipes, take a big deep breath inhale and....LET IT OUT (dont choke) haha, just playing!

Anyways, I am a DSMer at heart, I have owned 4 of them (INCLUDING A 1991 GVR4 THAT I LOVED WITH ALL MY HEART AND SOUL AND REMINDED ME ENOUGH THE MSP THAT I BOUGHT IT), but i am really falling in love with my MSP also. Pound for pound (dollar and boost) the 1g AWD t/e/l is the strongest, meanest, and most efficient/reliable mix you can get for the cheapest buck. I will most likely own one again one day, but the styling on the MSP, kills those 1gens hands down (and the 3rds for that matter, still a lil partial to the 2g's!)

Ok my 2.5centz, s*** on me if you like, and i in turn will take a dump in your exhaust (Damn i am tired, what the hell did i just say??!?!?!)

peace my peepholes!

 

[Cyllarus]

my $.02 as a 3s owner

im looking into buying a MSP. And i have to say that I am a bit dissapointed with the engine..

Mitsu is getting 100 more hp out of the 2.0 4g63 from the evo.
the MSP motor is essentialy the same motor, 2 liters, dohc, 4 valve per cyl.

the motor jsut wasnt setup to run massive boost. i mean cmon, 19psi in the evo, from the factory compared to 6 in the MSP..

i really think that mazda should have boosted the FS motor to get atleast 200hp from the thing. if only to have it be on the level of the other turbo small cars out there ( srt-4, wrx)

The stealth i just had had about 375 at the crank and could have esaily run a high 12 quarter with a MBC if i hadnt sold it.. so i know what high hp is all about.

the reson im stepping down to a msp is because i want a nimble car, that is affordable, and the msp comes decked out from the factory, nice system, nice interior, good rims, good shocks, swaybars.

and all for 19k!!!! what a deal.

but the dsm guys are right, the msp isnt a big player in the turbo car world, and honesly i think boosting a msp above 10 psi is just dumb, the car is not made for it...

if you want big boost, go rx-7, supra, 3s, or 300z
even the wrx and DSM are not big HP car IMO.

 

[enuttage]

Re: my $.02 as a 3s owner

if you want big boost, go rx-7, supra, 3s, or 300z
even the wrx and DSM are not big HP car IMO.

I couldn't agree more. The 13B loves the FI...as long as you cool it properly (meaning over-cool it). Although I think the DSM is a killer platform that can produce huge hp and killer 1/4 times (especially if you've got 4 on the floor with some AWD). The Subaru gearbox and tranny simply can't take what the motor is capable of.

My buck's worth...

-E

 

[perfworks]

The new 4g63 from mitsu is a completely different motor. trust me
you cant compare the FS to it. they may have the same displacement but the mitsu has forged crank and rods that are meant to deal with the high cylinder pressures.
the MSP also has a forged crank and rods but not for F/I. They are good for 15 psi on a small turbo. tops
Then without igniton control forget going over 9-10psi.
Crank walk is also all but eliminated in the new motor also.
it is mounted the opposite way to help control that problem.

 

[gvr4ever]

The MSP might not be a DSM, but it will drive circles around DSMs.

The car is a great car for the price. If you want a fast car, I don't think this is the best choice. If you want a solid ride with great factory options, then MSP is prolly the best way to go.

It might not have the power of a EVO or STi, but it sure can corner just about as good and for 10K less. I don't know about U guys, but that means a lot to me.

I can't wait for mine to be in the driveway.

 

[KyRaceFan]

DSM.. the only real DSM cars are the 1g Laser, Eclipse and Talon.
Other cars may share the 4g63 engine, ie galant, colt, starion. But they are NOT a true Diamond Star Motor.
But thats just a technicality...you can think of them as a DSM, since the companies did share the platform and motor for many cars.
Crankwalk: The Crankshaft litteraly shifts and throws the motor out of balance. Only happened on the 7 bolt 2g eclipse/talon motor. Worst in 96 and 97.
Tranny: The Transmission design was good, but dies eventually from AWD launching.. since you dont get much tire spin in AWD, the power is diverted back to the tranny.. same thing that happens in the Subaru WRX.

the srt-4 runs 12psi stock i believe, on a td04L-16g turbo. It is also a 2.4L engine with forged rods and pistons, and compression of 8.1:1.
Its the same motor as the PT cruiser Turbo.
Theres a great article about the engine in one of the recent sport compacts, the one with the cop car on the cover.

The Lancer Evolution is a 4g63 2.0L, with a16g at 19psi. It has forged crank, rod and low compression pistons. It makes so much power because it runs alot of boost, has a very efficient intercooler, and fuel delivery system.

Note: The 16g turbo flows about 30% more air than our t25, so it is a pretty decent sized turbo, compared to the MSP.

The Protege motor isnt the weak point, and is NOT a stock protege motor. They lowered the compression to 9:1 to handle the boost better. The weak point are the rods, and possibly the tranny. But with 300whp on this car, its going to be pretty fast.
The fuel system needs bigger injectors and fuel/ignition management to get you there. With forged rods, youd have no problem.

 

[jred321]

Crankwalk: The Crankshaft litteraly shifts and throws the motor out of balance. Only happened on the 7 bolt 2g eclipse/talon motor. Worst in 96 and 97.
Tranny: The Transmission design was good, but dies eventually from AWD launching.. since you dont get much tire spin in AWD, the power is diverted back to the tranny.. same thing that happens in the Subaru WRX.

The Lancer Evolution is a 4g63 2.0L, with a16g at 19psi. It has forged crank, rod and low compression pistons. It makes so much power because it runs alot of boost, has a very efficient intercooler, and fuel delivery system.

The Protege motor isnt the weak point, and is NOT a stock protege motor. They lowered the compression to 9:1 to handle the boost better. The weak point are the rods, and possibly the tranny. But with 300whp on this car, its going to be pretty fast.
The fuel system needs bigger injectors and fuel/ignition management to get you there. With forged rods, youd have no problem.

crankwalk did not only happen on 7 bolt 2g motors. it can happen on 1g 6 bolts, or 1g 7 bolts, hell even a supra motor, but it is most prominent in 2g's from 95-97, the worst being 95 and getting slowly better after that.
i wouldn't exactly call the transmission good, as i had synchro's wear out on a fwd car that was never dragged, and lots of people have notchy shifting, but its not terrible. the axles/diffs take a beating from the launch more than the tranny itself, and people break rear ends and center diffs all the time.
the evo runs 8.8:1 compression according to cars.com, a full point higher than 1g's and 0.3 points higher than 2g's, not exactly low compression. the proper fuel tuning, better flowing everything, and intercooler is why it can run high boost with the bigger turbo, and therefore make the power.
i would say the protege's weak point is the engine management, followed by the rods and tranny, but that's just me.

 

[perfworks]

crankwalk did not only happen on 7 bolt 2g motors. it can happen on 1g 6 bolts, or 1g 7 bolts, hell even a supra motor, but it is most prominent in 2g's from 95-97, the worst being 95 and getting slowly better after that.
i wouldn't exactly call the transmission good, as i had synchro's wear out on a fwd car that was never dragged, and lots of people have notchy shifting, but its not terrible. the axles/diffs take a beating from the launch more than the tranny itself, and people break rear ends and center diffs all the time.
the evo runs 8.8:1 compression according to cars.com, a full point higher than 1g's and 0.3 points higher than 2g's, not exactly low compression. the proper fuel tuning, better flowing everything, and intercooler is why it can run high boost with the bigger turbo, and therefore make the power.
i would say the protege's weak point is the engine management, followed by the rods and tranny, but that's just me.

you beat me to a few good points
nice post.

 

[8cd03gro]

The MSP might not be a DSM, but it will drive circles around DSMs.

The car is a great car for the price. If you want a fast car, I don't think this is the best choice. If you want a solid ride with great factory options, then MSP is prolly the best way to go.

It might not have the power of a EVO or STi, but it sure can corner just about as good and for 10K less. I don't know about U guys, but that means a lot to me.

I can't wait for mine to be in the driveway.

wow....cocky anyone????? the msp is a great car, but...
1.no you cant run circles around a dsm (at least the eclipses and talons)
even if you mod...give them the same mods they shall DESTROY YOU. (ive personally seen street dsm's run low 10's.
2. the msp is probably the best handling fwd car stock ever (at least in my opinion) but you will never out handle an evo....NEVER.


i dont mean to disrespect, the msp is great, but dont exaggerate. (thumb)

 

[msp35]

howd you go from comparing an eclipse, talon, to throwing in an EVO?

I know that I blew away a fully built mid 90's eclipse gs-t. Granted he was only running 16psi and the stock smic, but I still blew his ass away @~10psi untuned.

 

[jersey_emt]

wow....cocky anyone????? the msp is a great car, but...
1.no you cant run circles around a dsm (at least the eclipses and talons)
even if you mod...give them the same mods they shall DESTROY YOU. (ive personally seen street dsm's run low 10's.
2. the msp is probably the best handling fwd car stock ever (at least in my opinion) but you will never out handle an evo....NEVER.


i dont mean to disrespect, the msp is great, but dont exaggerate. (thumb)

1. "Running circles" around a car implies superior handling, something that the MSP has a definite advantage over a DSM.

2. The MSP *is* the best handling stock FWD car ever. And the post you quoted never mentioned outhandling an EVO; he only claimed that an MSP can handle almost as well as an EVO for $10K less. That is a completely factual statement. The difference in handling capability between an EVO and an MSP is definitely there, but it's not as big of a difference as one might expect.

3. WTF? This thread is over 2 years old!