Damnit Of All Times For My Motor To Blow!

[project_msp]

Hah! I was considering another car... but like I said... I've grown fond of the MSP and I've put too much damn money in it to just let it go to waste now. I never truely got to enjoy the mods It would be a lot easier to just trade it in on an evo or sti... but then I would have to start all over. And I swear... I see atleast 2-3 a day :O I hardly ever see msps Plus... no one really takes our cars seriously, I'd like to change that...

 

[kwiktsi]

I have never heard of a blown engine with the unichip. I would like for you to name me three MSP that are blown that did not either have a Joep MBC or FCD (or both). Really. Big threadjack. Find me three.

That is unfair to blame the product, don't you think? Any FCD will lean the car out and can cause timing issues due to the car "seeing" less air (just like using an AFC on other cars). The problem is people modding their cars that shouldn't be. I have said from the start it is not safe to add anything to your car without getting it on a wideband and also datalogging it. Too many people think "put this here and I will be fast", it doesn't work that way- you still need to be sure the tuning is correct. The "real" way to do this is to get the correct engine management tuned by a PROFESSIONAL, not just blindly throw parts at a car and call it a day. Comparing, piggy backs, Unichip, MPI, etc to an FCD and MBC is purely apples to oranges. One is a tuning tool, the other is not and still requires proper tuning to run. If this isn't known by the installer, then perhaps they need a new hobby.
Joe

 

[kwiktsi]

well you did almost everything right, but made some fatal errors that cost you alot of trouble. btw where you using 93+ octane?

The UniChip is an improvement over the stock ECU. One of the reason why is because it no longer makes the car run so rich.(by either advancing timing or injecting less fuel, either way its leaner) Thats a good thing (although more dangerous), but the FPR and FCD 100% for sure ****** the a/f. I would even put a FPR on a unflashed ECU running 8 psi.(my fpr is for sale btw.....) Next the FCD leans out the car even more when not under boost. That combined with the FPR and the leaning from the UNICHIP, I dont even think you would need to see boost to blow the motor.

But, IT IS NOT THE END OF THE WORLD!!!! Pick up your yellowpages and start phoning every junkyard that is in there for prices on a motor. The majority of motors are fine and are from proteges that have been rear ended etc. even a head on collision, chances are the block and internals are fine. I found a motor with 30,000kms on it for around $800cdn depending if i wanted any accessories etc. Thats all you will really need since the rest you can scavenge from your current motor. You will also wanna pick up a rebuild kit that has new gaskets, bearings etc. Then you need to start asking around for an honest shop that does not overcharge. Explain your situation to them and see if they can do it cheap. If the guy says it will take alot of time etc. tell him you could leave the car there for a few days and whenever he has a chance to do some work to go for it. If you are a girl this will be easier than you think. If your a guy, offer to help him with the work if possible, you will get to learn a thing or two as well. I blew the motor in my Escort GT a few years back and I had a new motor in within the week, you can too.

Dont give up on the speed cause of a setback. Ive told you everything you need to do, its that EZ.

And guys there is a reason your msp runs pig rich, to help prevent destruction from poor tuning. it must have been done to prevent people from turning up the boost and blowing the motor at 9 psi. take away the richness without properly tuning the beast and you will have a nice paperweight. just cause a wrx, talon or even a 626gt can turn up the boost without worries doesnt mean we can. my sig shows you how much i worry, i dont even boost over stock without watching the boost gauge religiously, no music and the window down to listen for deto.

Getting a headache reading all the ignorance here with a few intellegent posts mixed in, so forgive me for not reading your whole reply. I just wanted to correct you- the FCD does not lean the car out any when you are off boost. It is not even designed purposley to lean the car out at all, however while under boost (when the FCD is engaged), the ONLY way to prevent cut is to manipulate the MAF readings- THIS WILL LEAN THE CAR OUT A BIT AND CAN EVEN ADVANCE THE TIMING since the AF and timing are based on air flow. *Any* FCD (Mine, hks, turf burns, Turbo XS, etc) will have the same side effects. That is where it is the "tuners" job to ensure that this isn't a problem. AFC's, Emanage (without the injector harness), etc all do the same thing. The other piggy backs do it also- however since they also control the injectors, they can tell them to give more fuel than the ECU is. Less air= less fuel, period. You make it "see" less air, you get less fuel. This has been discussed repeatedly since I started making the FCD. That is why from day one it has been highly recommended by myself and the other tuners here who know what they are talking about that the FCD ONLY be installed by professionals and ONLY when the proper supporting mods/tweaks have been performed. It is a well known fact that the MSP motor is weak and cannot handle much power, let alone detonation or imroper tune. You simply cannot just throw parts at it and call it tuned and expect it to run. People ask me what psi to run, I say 9-10 MAX and they still want to run 13 (not this particular case, but I get it all the time). You guys are hard headed then want to point fingers at everyone else. Jeesh.
Joe

 

[kwiktsi]

well i'm rebulding the engine contacting MAM and Wagner today for pricing and some other options. i'll keep yall posted on my POS.

Congrats!! Is it rebuildable? I would assume it trashed the block when you sid it had oil everywhere? I know- I'm late to everything..
Joe

edit- should have read first. Good luck with the buildup.

 

[spacemonkey]

FPR and FCD do work its just that like kwiktsi said, you have to know what you are doing. A/F change according to alot of things.

So my guess is it was either a hot or cold day that this all happened...maybe a loose sensor cause the car to run lean...who knows. Shouldnt blame one product especially when the JoeP FPR and FCD came out before any piggyback or standalone was made for our cars. Just seem bad to blame somone who invested time in R&D for our cars...remember when he dynoed it at some crazy psi to test how the car was running? He wouldnt have made the product if it blew engines but im sure he has always said used with caution.

only problem with unichip is that its a product designed to work everywhere and you know its hard to compensate what the weather or temperature is at below sea level (Florida) and a mile above sea level (Colorodo). So you never get the best tune out of the product...just a general tune. Its a big plus if someone local can tune unichip...but if there isnt, the unit could use a fine tune. Well thats what I've been told....you never get the best results from chip but a big improvement over stock. Its the main reason why I decided to go emanage. But if it wasnt for that, I would go for unichip for less hassel...and those that complain about the price of unichip its a decent priced...remember that it comes pre tuned. Although you can ger emanage for $400-$500 you still have to find someoen to tune it. Unless you know how to tune or can find a map.

 

[jurgs01]

I am not bashing your product. It does what it is supposed to do. It manipulates to get around a safety feature (which is resulting in a lot of blown engines). I think people deserve warning before they put it on their car. I also think they deserve a warning that it's not the best quality (thus the low price). I had a joep FPR and MBC on my first car, and the MBC would only adjust to over 10psi and spiked like hell. The people buying your products aren't the novice tuners, but those who are new and looking for some more power. They deserve to know that people have blown their engines with your parts (combined with their decisions) being the reason.

 

[kwiktsi]

That is why I am waiting for turf burn to offer his FCD so I can ditch the MSP items. Too many inexperienced people who think they know it all. The problem with the MBC on the MSP is just the damn turbo spools too fast for ANY ball and spring type controller to not spike. If you run a different type of controller, you can eliminate spike- BY SLOWING DOWN THE SPOOL. You have to decide what you want- a quick spike, or "mushy" performance. Can't have everything . Even with an electronic controller, the MSP spike like a b**** unless you turn the spool way down, then it spools like ass. The bleed hole could be made a bit smaller for the MBC to work a bit better on the MSP, but why change something that has worked great for almost 4000 other people just for a small community? It has been on 1000+ hp cars and stock cars alike- the MSP has a bad T25 ball bearing turbo and 9.5:1 compression- if you expect it to spool as it was designed to and not spike, then you need to go back to the books .
Joe

 

[II-Savy]

That is why I am waiting for turf burn to offer his FCD so I can ditch the MSP items. Too many inexperienced people who think they know it all. The problem with the MBC on the MSP is just the damn turbo spools too fast for ANY ball and spring type controller to not spike. If you run a different type of controller, you can eliminate spike- BY SLOWING DOWN THE SPOOL. You have to decide what you want- a quick spike, or "mushy" performance. Can't have everything . Even with an electronic controller, the MSP spike like a b**** unless you turn the spool way down, then it spools like ass. The bleed hole could be made a bit smaller for the MBC to work a bit better on the MSP, but why change something that has worked great for almost 4000 other people just for a small community? It has been on 1000+ hp cars and stock cars alike- the MSP has a bad T25 ball bearing turbo and 9.5:1 compression- if you expect it to spool as it was designed to and not spike, then you need to go back to the books .
Joe

I've had my fun controller (joe's) on for a while now and it really doesn't spike persay....I just have it set so it doesn't go over 10. So it will hit 10 but not really stay there the whole time....so what. Works fine. Sometimes I boost by my left foot any way. Just driving around town I keep it at 5 with my foot. So I can have 5psi in every gear, every rpm...any time....or actually a bit higher....maybe 7ish. If you were real ballsy you could crank it to 15 and just drive with a head on your shoulders. You could boost how much ya want any time ya want. I know ....15psi = pop.

 

[project_msp]

joe, you know i'm happy with your products so don't let this thread make you think otherwise... i put AN ASSTON of parts on my car and who's to say any of your products caused the problem. you don't hear me complaining (except of course the first post I made >:])

 

[03MSPRO]

Even the Unichip with EBC spikes to 13-14 psi when it's cold. When warm, it only spikes to 11 psi.

 

[kwiktsi]

Oh, I know- nothing against you guys. You know I have no problems with quite a few of you guys, others have made this whole mazdaspeed thing of mine nothing but a pain in the ass for me. I have been in contact with Turf Burn for the last couple of months and am waiting on him to offer his FCD so I can pull mine and be done with it . Yes, the FCD changes AF ratios and timing curves as mentioned- but it does not blow your motor- the "tuner" (or lack of) blows the motor. As for the comment about the "not the best quality" (forgot to mention this before)- are you ******* kidding me? Here's a hint- a typical FCD CLAMPS the MAF voltage COMPLETELY CUTTING MAF based fuel enrichment and timing retard from that point forward. Mine DROPS THE VOLTAGE to keep you out of cut but STILL ALLOWS THE MAF VOLTAGE TO INCREASE with AIRFLOW to continue enrichment and timing retard (not as much as without anything obviously)- which is why people would still cut with my FCD in certain condtions. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize which design is better and *SAFER*. So many "experts" here, so little knowledge .
Joe

 

[jurgs01]

I am not going to get in a flame war with you Joe. Name me a FCD that just cuts the MAF voltage at a point and does not allow it to go any higher. As for your lack of knowledge statements any time you want to get into a design discussion I'm down. That's what I do. I know you are mad because I'm trying to warn people about how using your parts without proper safeguards are playing with fire. You are on here trying to defend your parts so you don't lose sales. You could give a s*** about if some newbie comes on here and buys your MBC and FCD and pops his engine. I saw your response that it's their fault. Hopefully someone reads my post and maybe thinks about getting some safeguards before just slapping your parts on. I really hate when vendors come on here and say we are a pain in the ass to deal with so they want to stop making things for the MSP market. It's because we try to protect each other from raw deals. You don't see vendors like MAM or Turfburn getting flack. It's because they are patient and tactful people who work with people when there are problems. There was a whole thread where people were mad at you and instead of helping you just blamed everyone but yourself. I'm done and unsubscribing to this thread, but my opinion is there for all to see.

 

[kwiktsi]

Do you actually think I give a s*** about sales to the MSP crowd after all this time and what it has put me through? Have you missed all the posts about what a pain in the ass it has been for me? Did you miss what was said about waiting for Turf Burn to finish his FCD so I could stop producing them? Have you missed over the last year that I am only still here by request of a few people since there were no other options? Don't give me the losing sales speech .

I have some loyal MSP customers and a majority of the others have been awesome to deal with and I appreciate them. We BS back and forth often and the funny thing is they have the same complaints I have had and most have since sold their cars because of not wanting to be a part of it. I am appreciative of the sales the MSP crowd has created for me, but don't think for one second I am in this for the sales after all the BS I have deal with from here. As I said above, it is only by request. If it were for the sales, I had LOTS of other items in the works which would have benefitted most of you guys and drummed up more business for me. I didn't cancel those plans because I care about losing sales, that's for sure (smash) ..


Anyway- pretty much ALL FCD's CLAMP voltage- that's what they are a clamp. If the car never hits fuel cut no matter what PSI/airflow with an FCD- it is because it is clamping it and not allowing any further airflow increase to be seen by the ECU. That is even why the HKS FCD says right in the instructions that it is necessary to do proper fuel modifications beyond that point (or something to that extent, been about two years since I have read them). The only things that work as a clamp/FCD and still allow for increased fueling (with lots more tuning potential of course) are the better piggy backs (utec, emanage, MPI tuner, etc).

Also, I do care if some newb installs the parts without proper precaution- that is why I have told quite a few that an FCD is beyond them when they ask various questions, but they still want it and tell me "don't worry, I'll be careful"..

Please try to not tell me what I do and do not care about, you have no right nor clue. This is getting ******* ridiculous now, as usual. You want to compare experience- how many 700+ hp cars have you built? You know, **** it. I could care less. I am a member of forums that wouldn't even let you apply, so don't judge my knowledge or experience. I have been doing this a LONG time....

I was just defending myself against any misinformation like "it is the products that blew the car up".

As for the "we are tight and protect each other" thing, that is a good thing and that is the benefit of forums- you *can* protect each other. Just be sure to know what you are "protecting" against. You have pushed away several good vendors already with your "looking out for each other". It doesn't affect me any, just you guys.
Joe

 

[jurgs01]

Please try to not tell me what I do and do not care about, you have no right nor clue. This is getting ******* ridiculous now, as usual. You want to compare experience- how many 700+ hp cars have you built? You know, **** it. I could care less. I am a member of forums that wouldn't even let you apply, so don't judge my knowledge or experience. I have been doing this a LONG time....

Wow, you are a member of forums that won't let me apply(bow)

Did you fly to a ship and fix their ring laser gyro based inertial navigation system so they could fire missles on time? It doesn't take a lot of brainpower to work on or even design things for a car. It's by far one of the most basic things I have worked on, which is why it remains a hobby. I never said I was an experienced car mechanic, but I'm intelligent enough to see through the bulls*** and pick up on things. Remember I've owned your parts and I've owned quality versions of the same parts. Your parts are cheap parts made to get quick HP. About us driving some good vendors away. We treat the good vendors very well here. The vendors who are honest, keep their customers up to date about what's going on, and work to help solve problems are treated very well here. We are better off without the rest.

 

[kwiktsi]

You know, you are a ******* joke. This whole thing is getting ridiculous now. I apologize if I am not an aerospace engineer, but I am a racer, fabricator and builder. Maybe it is simple to you, but I have yet to seen an engineer truely have what it takes to go fast.

Quality version af a ball and spring MBC- you mean you paid more $$$ just for a pretty housing to hold the same type of ball and spring? Yeah, that makes it superior... FCD's- yes, there are others out there that are better built, but hell- I am not HKS and I wanted something effective and not charge $130 for it- AND as mentioned previously- it is safer overall by design.

Glad you speak for everyone here. When you get your head out of your ******* ass, then maybe I'll show you some respect. I had no problem with you until you started flapping your gums. Know your role, learn your place and shut the **** up. I'm done with this bulls***. I am going to go to bed, **** my pretty wife and enjoy my evening. This he said.she said message board crap is bulls***.
Joe

 

[jurgs01]

You can swear at or insult me all you want. I can tell you it's really going to keep me up at night knowing you don't approve of me.(smash) I originally posted on this thread saying that most of the cars going down had joep FCD. I even posted that I didn't blame you. You felt the need to defend your product, and I felt the need to warn potential users about its downfalls. I'm sure both of our lives will go on.

 

[kwiktsi]

I'm sure both of our lives will go on.

At least we agree on something . Listen, I know you initially started to just warn which was fine. I would defend accordingly and it would escalate with your reply and so on. You simply cannot blame the products which it turned into. I honestly was not defending them for sales sake, I really don't care, they are such a limited production vehicle anyway aside from all that. I sell more in a week to every other type of vehicle owner than I ever have in a month to the MSP gang. Again, not that I don't appreciate it. Hell, the MBC's are always going to be there. It is just not a lucrative market anyway- add headache to that and it just isn't worth it. So the sales comment was an unecessary low blow and totally untrue. Oh well, now I am going to bed and hopefully still getting some, she is probably sleeping by now .
Joe

 

[JDM Sam]

That is unfair to blame the product, don't you think? Any FCD will lean the car out and can cause timing issues due to the car "seeing" less air (just like using an AFC on other cars). The problem is people modding their cars that shouldn't be. I have said from the start it is not safe to add anything to your car without getting it on a wideband and also datalogging it. Too many people think "put this here and I will be fast", it doesn't work that way- you still need to be sure the tuning is correct. The "real" way to do this is to get the correct engine management tuned by a PROFESSIONAL, not just blindly throw parts at a car and call it a day. Comparing, piggy backs, Unichip, MPI, etc to an FCD and MBC is purely apples to oranges. One is a tuning tool, the other is not and still requires proper tuning to run. If this isn't known by the installer, then perhaps they need a new hobby.
Joe

(mswerd) Joe P. FP Green what!

 

[JDM Sam]

At least we agree on something . Listen, I know you initially started to just warn which was fine. I would defend accordingly and it would escalate with your reply and so on. You simply cannot blame the products which it turned into. I honestly was not defending them for sales sake, I really don't care, they are such a limited production vehicle anyway aside from all that. I sell more in a week to every other type of vehicle owner than I ever have in a month to the MSP gang. Again, not that I don't appreciate it. Hell, the MBC's are always going to be there. It is just not a lucrative market anyway- add headache to that and it just isn't worth it. So the sales comment was an unecessary low blow and totally untrue. Oh well, now I am going to bed and hopefully still getting some, she is probably sleeping by now .
Joe

What the **** did I tell you about leaving your wife in bed alone? There you go again blabbering bout car s*** when you can be getting laid.
(uhm) (butthump) (2thumbs)

 

[ddogg777]

I came out of a turn and a wonderful noised came out from under my hood.

When I read this post I thought you starved the engine in the turn. Didn't anyone else wonder this?? I read the whole thread and no one ever mentioned the turn. If you look at our pan and pickup you will see that it is not the best design. There have been a lot of N/A cars that have blown coming out of a turn.