Hello, i bought a non running msp for a great price. It cranks (fairly slowly) but does not run currently. I have confirmed that i have fuel and spar to the engine; however, it will not run. I performed a compression test and it was only getting about 50 psi in all the cylinders. I performed a wet compression test to see if all the rings were just worn out; however, it did not significantly raise the compression (only about 10 psi). I have also been sure to check the timing and i can verify that it is correct. I am wondering if anyone has any insight on what the problem could be that is causing this low of compression in all four cylinders.
Crank but no start situation
- Thread starter jgoods042
- Start date
Since the head is aluminum it is not uncommon for them to warp when the car overheats. I got 40-50psi compression across all cylinders when the head was warped on the last car I was working on so this sounds familiar. It won't start on 50psi compression. Is there any oil in your coolant or vice versa?
It could also be a starter or battery issue. Maybe it isn't cranking fast enough to start. I'd figure that part out first.
It could also be a starter or battery issue. Maybe it isn't cranking fast enough to start. I'd figure that part out first.
hornsfan10609
Certified Mazda Tech
- :
- 2003.5 Mazdaspeed Protege x2
And although you said you checked the timing it still could be off, it can be tricky.
Interesting that the head could be warped, i never considered that. I have a spare engine block and head that i am considering rebuilding and just swapping it in as a fun project. However, if i didn't have to that would also be nice. In response to Schwamm, I will check as soon as possible to see if there is any mixing of coolant and oil (likely today or tomorrow). And in response to hornsfan, I was thinking the same thing; however, at most it would only be a tooth or so off if it is wrong, would this be enough to drop my compression down to the 50 psi range? I can confidently say that the crankshaft is not 180 degrees off which is what i was initially thinking.
hornsfan10609
Certified Mazda Tech
- :
- 2003.5 Mazdaspeed Protege x2
Since the cam gears are the same and must be installed on their respective cam in the correct position it's possible they were installed wrong or just not set correctly. But the head gasket/deck surface is possible as well.
Just an update to this whole ordeal. The head of the engine has been removed, coolant has been drained and there didn't seem to be any oil in it. The tops of the pistons have a lot of dents on them so i'm currently assuming that the turbo broke and part of the internal fan flew in the intake and caused the damage to the heads. Despite this, the integrity of the cylinder walls seem fine, and i will soon be inspecting the head further to determine if there are valve issues that were causing the low compression. Although all this happened, i still do not have a definite reason as to why the compression was so low (i am almost positive the timing was not the issue). So currently my next steps will be to inspect the engine head as well as the turbo and exhaust system to diagnose the overall situation with the car. I apologize for the lack of an update, i will likely post what i learn as i go to keep this thread updated, thank you to everyone who has been commenting! (rockon)
I am very dedicated to getting this car working this summer
I am very dedicated to getting this car working this summer
KISS.. keep it simple. I TOTALLY get the frustration though. http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?123848722-1289-A-story-of-rebirth
The turbo turbine DID NOT cause the dimples in the pistons... think about it. A chunk of the turbine would have had to have broken off, pulled through piping, into the intercooler, sucked up the intake pipe, past the throttle body, into the intake, sucked PAST an intake valve, during the millisecond its open, then do what? How would it dent the piston?
I had ZERO compression with my CRANK / NO START situation. The timing was about 110 degrees off..
If you have verified spark, and fuel.. its time to check the timing. You may only be a notch or two off if you have compression numbers like that..
That being said.... how many miles are on this thing?
What you are describing could be worn out piston rings.. you said 50psi (dry) 60psi(wet) but you didn't say specifically how much each is getting. Those numbers are important.
For example, (going in order, 1,2,3,4) if you got 50spi, 52psi, 140psi, 146psi.. that would indicate a head gasket leak between the 1 and 2 cylinders.
If ALL cylinders are getting bad, low compression, like 50psi, for example.. you really want to verify the timing. You usually don't get ALL 4 cylinders failing at once.
So I guess the question is.. when you did this dry and wet compression tests, did you test ALL the cylinders, or just 1?
And if you did do all 4, what were the results?
"i am almost positive the timing was not the issue" is not positive. You may be ripping into this motor for no reason.
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Hey, thank you for your reply and understanding the frustration of the situation. When i did the compression test i did test all the cylinders and they were all ranging from 50-55 psi. The next step i did was a leakdown where i confirmed for the first cylinder that there was an intake leak, and for the rest of the cylinders it was difficult to determine the exact source of the leaking. I haven't torn into the engine too horribly at this point, only the head is out and it was a brand new head gasket. My next step is going to be to try to diagnose the issues with the head obviously to determine the why the leaking is occurring. I was not expecting to find dented pistons and the cylinder walls still seem to be in perfect condition so i am not saying that the dented pistons are causing anything in particular, i am simply trying to come up with a reason as to why they are dented. I plan to keep updating this thread as i go along with the troubleshooting process; however, at this point the block is still in the car so i have not gone too far into the ripping into the motor phase. And i believe the leakdown was enough of a confirmation to determine that it was not timing that was the issue because even when at top dead center, with the valves "completely closed" there was still major leaking occurring. I agree with you in that i am still not 100 percent sure that it is not timing; however, i am currently finding other issues with the car by taking the motor apart which to me is making it worth it and will help me decide if i may just want to completely engine swap.
Again, i am overall very happy with the support of this forum and i thank you all for keeping me honest in that the timing may still be the issue. I have another head and brand new head bolts and gaskets ready to go for when i want to put the head back in but while i am at it since the car is new to me, i am very happy inspecting as much as i can so that when i get it running i can be fairly confident in what is going to need more work.
Thanks for being supportive of this endeavor!
Edit: 112,000 miles
Again, i am overall very happy with the support of this forum and i thank you all for keeping me honest in that the timing may still be the issue. I have another head and brand new head bolts and gaskets ready to go for when i want to put the head back in but while i am at it since the car is new to me, i am very happy inspecting as much as i can so that when i get it running i can be fairly confident in what is going to need more work.
Thanks for being supportive of this endeavor!
Edit: 112,000 miles
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Can you post some pics of those pistons?
I'm not sure, but I didn't catch you saying you did a leakdown test as well.. in that case, it may be the head. I don't know what else it would be...
If you have the new head already.. I vote INSTALL that thing and see what happens.
If you have that compression tester still, and the new head doesn't get you running, do another test to confirm..
I'm not sure, but I didn't catch you saying you did a leakdown test as well.. in that case, it may be the head. I don't know what else it would be...
If you have the new head already.. I vote INSTALL that thing and see what happens.
If you have that compression tester still, and the new head doesn't get you running, do another test to confirm..
LOL, just read my thread if you wanna see Johnnie Jamboogie needing a Snickers bar.
I was so flustered.. I sounded like a whiny b****. Your handling the situation much better than I did... LMAO
THE FS series engine is a NON interference motor.. pistons should never touch a valve, regardless of the timing
Should is the key word, I have read of a few people in the past on these forums that had engine damage when the timing belt let go on the protege
hornsfan10609
Certified Mazda Tech
- :
- 2003.5 Mazdaspeed Protege x2
Keno is right, it is a non-interference motor but the valves and pistons can come into contact if the T-belt snaps. It's not common but it has happened.
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Hey guys, i feel bad about not updating anything about this. Essentially since last updating i have verified timing because i bought a not running protege 5 and replaced the timing belt on that with no issues and it now runs. As for this car, it is still in non running condition. I have performed a leakdown test and it seems as though it is in fact the piston rings that are worn out because it sounds like air is leaking out of the bottom of the engine. Once i get the money together and move in a month to a location with a garage to work in i plan on taking out the engine and doing a rebuild project. Just thought i would update the situation (2 months late, sorry!) but i will likely post an msp build thread when that begins. Thank you for your help in this thread!
