Building HP after a turbo - veterans only!

[BulkyPolyMuscle]

K, here's my dilemma.

I have an 05 Mazda hatch 2.3L and I'm running a Tri-Point turbo kit. Gains are great, but still not enough. From what I understand our cars run about 160hp stock, to the crank, and my latest dyno results show peak hp @ 219 (sorry no pdf); that's only 60hp more.

What I want to know is how to build hp from here, and I'm looking for more than a bunch of suggestions on bolt-on crap, thus I ask the vet's. Yes, I have a CAI. No, I don't have an exhaust yet, but I'm REALLY looking for more than the benign list of upgrades that I just spent 15 pages of threads searching through.

I'm looking to hit about 300hp, so I have 80hp to go, and need you guys to bridge the gap. I know that shorter rods & aftermarket pistons will help me push the boost, but tell me everything else I need to know to reinforce my engine and start getting into the "big boy" #'s.

Mahalo and much love!

 

[fishdonotbounce]

You say you dynoed at 219? That's whp? If so, you gained much more than 60 ponies. You were much below 160 at the wheels before. The FSDE in the proteges is rated at some 130 at the crank. Stock dynos put it as low as 90 whp.

To answer your question though, you are right in assuming that the exhaust will give you more gains. To get to 300, you will need to up the boost and you will probably need forged rods and pistons. Is the car tuned right? So many different factors...

Either way, kudos to you for doing it with the regular 3. I want some pics and some vids.

Good luck.

 

[wanna3]

As you said before forged internals are a must, lower compression pistons are needed to run higher boost, the turbo given is almost maxed out at 300 hp mark, i dont know what cc's the injectors the kit comes with but to get to your desired whp mark you need atleast 500cc injectors. Since the turbo is internally wastegated then you may need to replace the actuator with one that allows for more boost. A tune of course, all of that should get you right at the 300whp mark, whats gonna make or break this is the tune. Good luck

 

[BulkyPolyMuscle]

Either way, kudos to you for doing it with the regular 3. I want some pics and some vids.

Ya, I'm not sure how it is in other places, but here in Utah all the nice cars are owned by a bunch of little b***es stuck on daddy's nuts; evo's, sti's, ms3's & ms6's etc. I figured I'd develop a car that could take them all out and do it the right way. And I don't have any vids, but I've got an album posted on my profile with some pics. Feel free to check it out!

Besides that I'm liking what I hear so far guys and I appreciate the feedback. A few other points of clarification too if you don't mind:

As far as I understand it, it's also pretty vital that I reinforce things like the stock manifold, aka get some headers. My only concern is that I want to keep the car street legal, and removing the stock manifold will remove the initial cat, right? If this is true, any way to avoid this circumstance but still install headers?

On top of that I've also heard many concerns about exhaust kits with the 3. I realize that removing the secondary cat on my vehicle will boost performance, but again I want to keep it street legal and I ABSOLUTELY HATE increased noise. Any recommendations on how to increase performance while still keeping it legal and quiet (like having 3" piping back from the secondary cat, etc).

Everything else aside I REALLY appreciate you guys and your help/enthusiasm. If you could, please also post suggestions and links for aftermarket pistons and rods.

Mahalo!

 

[fishdonotbounce]

If you're turboed, it's usually called a manifold instead of header since it's quite a bit different. I'd say the mani that came with your kit is plenty good. You can have a shop custom fab a 3" exhaust all the way back and have them weld in high flow cats that won't restrict flow much and will probably keep you legal. I'm not sure where the precat is on the 3's but if your turbo mani didn't eliminate it, then you can get rid of it and have the shop go from the mani all the way back.

 

[BulkyPolyMuscle]

Gotcha, I appreciate the experienced advise & clarification.

I'm assuming, then, that as long as the vehicle stays within emission standards that it's alright that I remove the precat..? And I like the suggestion on the fabricated exhaust. I've actually been trying to avoid that route but, in order to meet my criteria, it's looking more and more like that's the way I'm gonna have to go.

Mandrel Exhaust Systems has a nice 3" stainless steel piping setup that I think I'll go with, and then work with my local exhaust shop on high flow cat's and mufflers. Other than that I guess I'll just start to shop around on forged pistons and rods.

Thx again guys!

 

[cali_axela]

Definitely get a 3" exhaust. I'm also running the Tri-Point turbo kit and I dynoed 244whp.

Do you have their catted downpipe or catless?

 

[wanna3]

Having the turbo manifold deletes your primary cat, the 2nd cat is further down. You can get a catted downpipe though. In order to stay within emissions for an OBDII vehicle it cannot have any cel's. The AEM standalone that comes with the tripoint kit elim any concerns. If you want a deep throaty exhaust then go with either vibrant or borla.

 

[BulkyPolyMuscle]

I'm also running the Tri-Point turbo kit and I dynoed 244whp. Do you have their catted downpipe or catless?

Make my jealous why don't ya?!? 244whp huh, not too shabby.

To be honest, I'm not positive if I'm running Tri-Point's catted or catless downpipe, I'll have to ask Mark. It's the one that came with the kit, and they did the install themselves (so I didn't get a chance to see the parts before they went on). Their dyno results are what I'm going off of tho, they sent me the printout & I'm at 218.9whp. I must admit, I'm ENVIOUS of your 244...

If you want a deep throaty exhaust then go with either vibrant or borla.

Ya I just checked out a link that Mandrel Exhaust Systems sent me and they make a 3" Borla kit. I'm REALLY tempted to get it, but I absolutely refuse to get something too loud. The only thing I'm waiting for is to verify the kinda noise the kit makes. If anybody has a sound clip of THEIR Mazda Borla kit (not just random sound clips from other exhausts) I'd really appreciate it guys.

As always, I appreciate you all; and keep the advice coming!!! Mahalo!

 

[cali_axela]

The Vibrant exhaust is really loud and sounds a bit hollow to me, it wouldn't be my first choice. The Borla has a really nice sound and is a little quieter, that'd be a great choice.

My kit and dyno were also both done by Tri-Point themselves. Was your dyno with stock exhaust? Mine was with the Racing Beat exhaust -- I've since modified it quite a bit.

I'm now running a very frankenstein exhaust setup that's seen several revisions: Tri-Point's catless downpipe into a 3" in/out Magnaflow high-flow cat, custom 3" midpipe all the way back to the rear suspension. Then where it bends there's a transition down to what's left of my Racing Beat exhaust system, which finishes it off -- their muffler sounds AMAZING and it's my favorite looking tip -- not too big and flows with the lines of the bumper perfectly. It's completely quiet at idle and low throttle and freeway cruising, almost as quiet as stock -- the only thing that really gives it away is a slight gurgle at idle. But when you get on it, it absolutely SNARLS with a really nice solid deep tone and gets pretty loud, but still not quite as loud as any of the cheaper off-the-shelf systems. I love it, and it definitely gave a nice little boost in power without needing to install any other supporting mods -- engine is still dead reliable, have had the kit a little over two years now including quite a few track days.

 

[cali_axela]

By the way, once you get over 240whp, this transmission is a ticking time bomb. Mine is getting rebuilt with some PAR straight cut gears this week after a rather spectacular failure at Laguna Seca two weeks ago.

 

[BulkyPolyMuscle]

Was your dyno with stock exhaust? Mine was with the Racing Beat exhaust -- I've since modified it quite a bit.

Yes, the dyno was done with the stock exhaust; the Tri-Point turbo is the first thing I've done performance wise on my car. To be honest, when I bought the vehicle I never had any intention of making performance modifications.

I'm really into car-audio, and did a pretty sexy job on the inside of my car first (i.e. 7" screens in the headrests, subs, Kenwood DDX touchscreen head unit, etc.). When I got bored with that is when I decided to do performance, thus Tri-Point.

By the way, once you get over 240whp, this transmission is a ticking time bomb.

And it's funny you mention that, I've noticed my transmission sticking a lot more after the turbo was installed. I consider myself a fairly capable driver, but every so often the gears will grind or the tranny will stick between gears. I hardly ever push my car, usually keeping the rpm's in the 3-4k range, but it would seem that my transmission is on it's way out the door... Thx for the heads up.

 

[cali_axela]

Are you still on the stock clutch? How long (time-wise and mileage-wise) has the turbo kit been installed? I beat the crap out of mine (although even though it sees full throttle and redline often, I'm careful and have never missed a shift or even so much as grinded gears, and always double-clutch rev match downshifts on the track) -- and the transmission didn't start giving me problems until about 20k miles / 23 months in (which was just a couple weeks ago). I have Tri-Point's HD clutch kit, a Quaife LSD, and a Mazdaspeed flywheel, which probably helped it last this long without problems.

Hopefully after this rebuild the transmission will go another 2-3 years without problems... but I'm sure the engine will go next eventually and need a rebuild too. That's just life of high performance aftermarket... gotta be prepared for it.

 

[BulkyPolyMuscle]

Are you still on the stock clutch? How long (time-wise and mileage-wise) has the turbo kit been installed?

Kit was installed around 53k miles, and I've got about 61k on it now. It was put on roughly 4 months ago, and yes, everything (transmission & clutch) is stock. There is nothing special about what I'm running; no clutch kit, high-end flywheel, not even a short shifter. Although I don't really have a desire to get a short shifter.

If you have suggestions on how to build the transmission/clutch from this point so that I can make it last, it would be much appreciated. And also, anybody have recommendations on high-flow cats? I'm about to make the purchase on the 3" Borla kit and am just waiting on a decent high-flow cat to go with it...

 

[wanna3]

As for building up your trans, the most you can do w/o tearing it apart and replacing the gears with stronger ones is a lightened flywheel and staged clutch, you can kinda prolong the life if you install a trans cooler though and use a better grade trans fluid.

Your concern with a loud exhaust is kinda hard to justify, the reason is because its all about the drivers tolerance, one person may think there car that sounds like someone is boiling water and put it up to a megaphone is the best sounding vehicle ever. Another thing is even though it may sound quiet or even nice on the outside it may drone and get annoying from the inside.

 

[cali_axela]

Kit was installed around 53k miles, and I've got about 61k on it now. It was put on roughly 4 months ago, and yes, everything (transmission & clutch) is stock. There is nothing special about what I'm running; no clutch kit, high-end flywheel, not even a short shifter. Although I don't really have a desire to get a short shifter.

If you have suggestions on how to build the transmission/clutch from this point so that I can make it last, it would be much appreciated. And also, anybody have recommendations on high-flow cats? I'm about to make the purchase on the 3" Borla kit and am just waiting on a decent high-flow cat to go with it...

Whoa, you put 8k miles on it in 4 months? I drive mine about 8k per year, haha. I don't commute to work in it though except rare occasions.

I would say the best thing you can do now is put in some good transmission fluid, like MT-90. That should prolong the transmission as long as possible. It doesn't sound like you're too hard on the car so you shouldn't have to rebuild your trans for a really long time, if ever at all. When the clutch needs to be replaced, just use a slightly higher-end one than stock... like an Exedy or ACT designed to hold a bit over your current power level.

I have a Magnaflow 3" cat and it seems to be doing its job. Car doesn't smell much at all and there's definitely more power than when I still had the stock cat in there. Had to buy it online, shops here don't stock / won't order high-flow cats since they're illegal here. You're only technically supposed to use OEM-style replacement cats here no matter what. And I couldn't find a 3" in/out Cali-spec cat for a reasonable price anywhere, and a high-flow is still way better for your nose and for the environment than running completely catless, so I went that route anyways.

 

[BulkyPolyMuscle]

Your concern with a loud exhaust is kinda hard to justify, the reason is because its all about the drivers tolerance, one person may think there car that sounds like someone is boiling water and put it up to a megaphone is the best sounding vehicle ever. Another thing is even though it may sound quiet or even nice on the outside it may drone and get annoying from the inside.

Valid Point. I've noticed that driver preference varies from person to person, so opinions on exhaust will come just as diverse. I guess my greatest fear is losing driveability because...

Whoa, you put 8k miles on it in 4 months? I drive mine about 8k per year, haha. I don't commute to work in it though except rare occasions.

as you pointed out I drive great distances often. 1000 mile round trips are not uncommon for me, and this car is also my daily driver... if you couldn't already tell. I hope that accounts for my paranoia with loud exhausts, because loud is fun for a few minutes, but after a few hours you're ready to put a bullet in your head. So I'm not bent on keeping the noise as low as stock, but I will sacrifice the increased HP of aftermarket if it's too loud... I'm just trying to find the best balance between performance and noise, because if I can't have both, low-noise wins.

BTW thanks for all the tips on the tranny & clutch, it's REALLY helpful. Keep the advice coming!

 

[wanna3]

My friend has a vr6 jetta with some unknown brand exhaust...it sounds amazing....from the inside, come to find out that it didnt have a resonator on it, he put one on, it quieted down just a tad but the terrible droning from the inside was completely gone.

To help increase engine life a little invest in a oil cooler, cheap and easy to install

 

[BulkyPolyMuscle]

Noted, thx for the heads-up on both accounts. I'll look into those...

 

[cali_axela]

Yeah good call about the oil cooler. I've got the standard little Cosworth one, and it made a noticeable difference.