Brakes for time trial

[benjpi]

Does anyone have any recomendations for brake shoes for an open track event? I've signed up for the CircuitCross at VIR patriot in Feb, and I'm worried about brakes. I've managed to get brake fade on the street using PepBoys finest Pro-Stop pads, and I'm worried about losing pedal on the track.

I've lost brakes on track on the bike, an experience I'm not looking to repeat on something I need to drive back home.

Will HPS or HP+ pads be enough? Will I run into issues with the rear drums?

 

[aMaff]

what the hell are you doing on the street that you're getting brake fade!? Anyway, that's niether here nor there. I've heard good things about the HP+. You may also want to ping user SM76, as he does a fair amount of time trialling (National Champ and all )

 

[Tom03es]

If you are going to make a habit out of going to the track like this (and why wouldn't you!!!!!) then "invest" in a set of race compound brake pads. You won't be able to drive with them on the street, but once you get them up to temp on the track you can dismiss brake fade from your list of things to worry about that day at the track. I had a set of Hawk Blues for my Saturn. Awesome pads- you can drive in deep and then drop the anchor and shed speed very quickly. I even used them with a set of Azenis RT-615 tires too. Once you learn how to modulate the brake pedal to keep from locking the tires up (Azenis are sticky, but not THAT sticky) you will love them.

As far as the drum shoes go, I wouldn't worry about those. Just make sure they still have some good material left on them.

 

[aMaff]

and always: don't forget to bleed your brakes.

 

[benjpi]

what the hell are you doing on the street that you're getting brake fade!?

There's a portion of my daily commute that has five hard turns within a mile, with straights in between. Its pretty auto-crossy as far as corner speeds go, but the straights allow somewhat more brisk between-corner speeds (maybe 60). After I changed to the pep-boys brakes, I got them to fade by the last corner on a day when I was both mad and in a hurry. To be fair to the PB brakes, their initial cold bite is very good, but they DO fade very fast when they get warm.

Gotcha, too, on the bleeding. We'll be refreshing the whole system before the event.

As far as the shoes go, I guess I'll give the Hawk Blue's a shot. I'll bring tools and change them at the track. I'll also make sure I've got fresh drums & shoes in the back, although I've already had one other track rat tell me I'll crack them anyway, so why worry...

I need new tires too, I was thinking about going to Kumho MX's or Hankook 212's as I've read they're better track tires. You say the 615's hold up okay?

 

[aMaff]

I found that the RT615s hold up to heat better than the z212s. The Kooks would get greasy pretty quick.

 

[Tom03es]

Yeah, my 615s held up nicely on track- even in 105 degree Oklahoma heat. Much better than my 215s.

If you can swing another set of wheels/tires, I fell immediately in love with my Toyo RA-1 tires.

 

[benjpi]

I live in a world of compromise, so no spare wheels & tires for me. I drive like enough of a moron that I'll burn a set a year even if their made of cast iron, so I've limited myself to one set per year. I managed to squeak almost a year out of the 615's, so maybe I'll try them again. I can't find the GRM with the tire comparison in it, maybe one of my kids colored in it.

I doubt I'd be so lucky with RA-1's, although I do want them so...

 

[WRCprotege]

carbotech pads are great .. axis ultimates.. are the best dual duty pad i ran on..much better then the HP+ im running now.. and cheaper too..

 

[sm76]

For the front, a true track pad is definitely the way to go. I have been using Carbotech XP-10's which are similar to a Hawk Blue or HT-10. The agressive street / autocross pads will work if you are a beginner and not very aggressive but it doesn't sound that way from your post. Pep Boy pads would last about 2 laps.

I've never driven a car with drums on the track, but I know plenty of guys with CRX's that just toss whatever cheap shoes on there. I have been running a very light rear pad to keep my car from locking up the rear tires anyway so the drums shouldn't hurt you much.

The Falken RT-615s seem to be preferred over the Hankooks. I used to run Hankooks as street tires and would get them pretty greasy when I used them for warm-up sessions. They lasted a very long time though, and I did manage some fast laps with them before they would fall off. Of course I would suggest Nitto NT-01 for a perfect long lasting track tire if you ever get a chance for a dedicated set.

Get some decent brake fluid too. It will make your life a lot easier by keeping the pedal firm. I can often go through a whole day at the track without needing to bleed the brakes (I always do a flush between events). I use ATE Super Blue and the Gold equivalent. Very inexpensive for that type of fluid. Check both the wet and dry boiling points of whatever fluid you look at.

 

[Auto-Xer]

Hawks require a 'transfer layer' of brake material on the rotors to work properly. I'd also get a set of dedicated track rotors--and bed them in according to the Hawk instructions. Mixing compounds from the street pads with the race pads does not sound like a great idea--unless your street pads are also Hawks.

http://www.hawkperformance.com/motorsports/faqs.php#Q6

Blues are outstanding, IMO--used them on my SpecRX7 racecar. Blackhawk Farms is my home track and it is brutal on brakes--the Blues never let me down.

 

[Tom03es]

I never had any issues with switching between my Autozone street pads and my Hawk Blue track pads. The brakes would take a lap or 2 to come up to temp (and scrap off the Autozone transfer layer and build up the Blue transfer layer) before they really came alive.

I thought about using dedicated track rotors, but never did.

Make sure to pump up your brake pedal after switching pads before you head out on track or head home. I was in a hurry to leave one track event (at Hallett in OK, the paddock space is in the interior of the track so you can only leave the track during the short windows between heats). I lightly rear ended a 1st gen RX-7 when my foot went to the floor. No damage to either car, luckily, but it could have been alot worse if I had made it out to the road before hitting my brakes for the first time!

 

[benjpi]

Thanks all. TireRack had Hawk Blues for my car for $75 on special, they should arrive later this week.

I expect that I might warp rotors at the track, so I might bring a spare set of those too.

Last item to check off: bleed with super blue.

 

[Tom03es]

To avoid "warping" your rotors, don't let your car sit in the same spot back in your paddock for too long. After 5-10 minutes, roll the car 1/2 wheel rotation so the pads are using the other side of the rotor to disapate their heat into and avoid transferring an brake pad "snapshot" onto your rotors. And on your cool down lap, pick a speed that is fast enough to get alot of air into the engine bay/brakes, but slow enough that you don't have to apply too much brake for the corners.

 

[Auto-Xer]

That is indeed good advice. Also, may look into 'speedbleeders' as well--they make doing a bleed-job easy for one person.

 

[low_psi]

I've had pretty good results with EBC Yellows but I'm switching to Cobalt XR3s for the next event. Both are good options in addition to the Carbotechs and Hawks

 

[MP3racer]

Does anyone have any recomendations for brake shoes for an open track event? I've signed up for the CircuitCross at VIR patriot in Feb, and I'm worried about brakes. I've managed to get brake fade on the street using PepBoys finest Pro-Stop pads, and I'm worried about losing pedal on the track.

I've lost brakes on track on the bike, an experience I'm not looking to repeat on something I need to drive back home.

Will HPS or HP+ pads be enough? Will I run into issues with the rear drums?

I would make sure your rotors are near full thickness and you shouldn't have a problem with warping. There are no performance brake shoes available unless you have them made specially. Just make sure your shoes are good thickness and adjust them before you go.

As for tires, what size rims do you have? I may be selling a few sets of used RA-1's from the race car....205-40-17's...let me know

Have fun at the track!!!(drive)

Tom

BTW, Hawk pads are definitely the way to go!!

 

[benjpi]

Thanks for the tires offer, but the car is still on 15's. Plus, I'm afraid that RA-1's may be like crack to me...

I've got Hawk Blue's at the ready, I'll be getting fresh front rotors just for the event. I'll be changing the rear drums AND shoes before the drive down. ATE SuperBlue is on the list too.

I've got an AWR 22mm bar I need to mount, and an MSP front bar that needs to go on too. I've also got some 336# rear springs to put on. If I'm lucky I'll get it all done before the event.

Lastly, I'll get a new set of RT615's, again on the stock wheels. My cheap gene has kicked in again and cured me of my want of width...

 

[MP3racer]

Thanks for the tires offer, but the car is still on 15's. Plus, I'm afraid that RA-1's may be like crack to me...

I've got Hawk Blue's at the ready, I'll be getting fresh front rotors just for the event. I'll be changing the rear drums AND shoes before the drive down. ATE SuperBlue is on the list too.

I've got an AWR 22mm bar I need to mount, and an MSP front bar that needs to go on too. I've also got some 336# rear springs to put on. If I'm lucky I'll get it all done before the event.

Lastly, I'll get a new set of RT615's, again on the stock wheels. My cheap gene has kicked in again and cured me of my want of width...

You'll be happy with the Hawk blues. Fresh front rotors will be nice, just don't bother with cross-drilled or slotted, OE will be fine. When you put the blues in at the track drag the brakes lightly for a lap to transfer some of the material to the rotor. This will "bed" the rotors. You may not need as much as the superblue brake fluid but it won't hurt....

Regarding the higher rate springs, make sure your shocks are up to the increased rate. If they are worn you may blow out a shock and have an even worse handling car....

Take care and have fun!

 

[benjpi]

Just got back yesterday from the CircuitCross at VIR Patriot. Ended up driving pretty conservatively, the fear of wrecking my daily driver kept me from really pushing the pace. Overall, I ended up the day mid-pack.

The brakes: I swapped out the pads and rotors on Friday night with a shop light, under a portable canopy, in the freezing rain. I also bled a full quart of Castrol full-synthetic DOT-3 thru the brakes. (poor planning on my part, it was the best I could find on Friday locally) Finished up at 10:30pm, drove it around a little bit to try to bed them in, but the local neighborhood isn't really conducive for such activities...

Got the car on track on Sunday, and the brakes came in. HOLEE CRAP! The brakes offered power that was the effective equivalent to throwing a pavement anchor from the trunk, and absolutely NO fade, anywhere, ever. They are AWESOME. Noisy though.

I had to de-trailer the car for the ride home (550 miles..) since I had to leave a day later than the guy with the trailer. They worked fine for the drive home, never noticed any cold brake issues. They are incredibly strong brakes, even cold.

The downsides: I expect that regular use of these pads requires that pads & rotors be changed with the engine oil, and after 550 miles of use, my front wheels are BLACK.

Good stuff though. Thanks for the recomendations.

The bummer from all of this is that I have an overwhelming urge to build a dedicated track car. MUST....RESIST.....