Best strut/$$$ option for MSP
- Thread starter livelyjay
- Start date
gavin_leslie
Member
If it is that you would need to add a length of threaded collar then that would eliminate the need for a spacer. That is, just add the neccessary length needed and no more. Another thought would be to have the RACE inserts shortened by the needed amount to fit the strut and gland nut combination. Either of those scenarios sound a bit long winded/expensive and far fetched though. What did Jeff do to have his double adjustables work?
As I recall there was a 1" or so difference between the struts of the 88-92 MX6 and the 93-97 MX6. The european 2nd gen Koni inserts were @1" shorter than the American 93-97 MX6 strut (this is why they were never available from Koni NA as they were not an "exact" fitment). This makes the euro Koni @2" shorter for the 88-92 MX6(so I needed a spacer to get to the minimum 1" difference rule). The lengths of the 93-97 MX6 struts and the lengths of the Protege struts were pretty much the same/similar as I recall.
It is very possible that (provided the dimensions are applicable) even without a spacer, the euro Koni inserts may be within the 1" allowance.
Biggest thing that I remember was that there was no option to have the bolt-from-the-bottom euro Konis to be converted to double adjustable in the future. Something about the internal dimensions and the inability to accept the RACE inserts guts. Aside from that, they are as revalvable as any other koni insert including the RACE insert....just rebound adjustable only
Gavin
He didn't have to conform to stock SCCA rules because he was running STX and now DSP. He just stuffed the RACE inserts into the stock housing, threaded it, put in the gland nut, and he was done.gavin_leslie said:
That is a possibility. We'll have a good idea when moxnix replies back with the measurement of the stock Mazda Protege struts.gavin_leslie said:
Not exact measurements but as close as I could get tonight with a tape measure on regular protege/5 struts.
Front 21 and 5/8"
Rear 26 and 1/8"
That is from the very bottom of the strut (lower than an insert will be able to get in there) to the tip of the shaft including the threaded portion.
Let me know if you need me to measure more or if you want some pictures of measurements.
Front 21 and 5/8"
Rear 26 and 1/8"
That is from the very bottom of the strut (lower than an insert will be able to get in there) to the tip of the shaft including the threaded portion.
Let me know if you need me to measure more or if you want some pictures of measurements.
Seems a bit long in the rear. Any chance you could measure out how long the threaded sections are F and R since Gavin left that out of the equation? Guessing it's at most 1.5". Also did you measure from the base of the strut tube? So far it's not looking good for the rear with the inserts. If you could break it down to strut tube length and piston length that would be awesome. I should just pull out one strut from the front and rear and measure them, I just don't have the time to do it.
Shaft
Front 7 and 7/8"
Rear 9 and 3/8"
Threaded.
Front 7/8"
Rear 2 and 3/8" (I say threaded but it is not all threaded but it is past the smooth part of the shock shaft.) See attached photos for more details.
My measurements were from the bottom of the mounting bracket where it goes around the actual strut tube. It is a little lower than the actual tube where you would be able to mount the strut by at least 1/4" - 1/2" or more.
Front 7 and 7/8"
Rear 9 and 3/8"
Threaded.
Front 7/8"
Rear 2 and 3/8" (I say threaded but it is not all threaded but it is past the smooth part of the shock shaft.) See attached photos for more details.
My measurements were from the bottom of the mounting bracket where it goes around the actual strut tube. It is a little lower than the actual tube where you would be able to mount the strut by at least 1/4" - 1/2" or more.
Attachments
Thanks moxnix. So the numbers look promising. Looks like you'd need an increase of 1.5" in the rear and about 2.1" in the front to make them work as is. Does this sound feasible to everyone and something that could/should be done?
.................... Stock ... Inserts ... Difference
Front Struts
Piston Length: 20.00cm 15.9cm (4.1cm/1.6in)
Body Length: 32.70cm 29.1cm (3.6cm/1.5in)
................... Stock ... Inserts ... Difference
Rear Struts
Piston length: 23.81cm 18.2cm (5.6cm/2.2in)
Body length: 36.51cm 36.3cm (0.2cm/0.08in)
.................... Stock ... Inserts ... Difference
Front Struts
Piston Length: 20.00cm 15.9cm (4.1cm/1.6in)
Body Length: 32.70cm 29.1cm (3.6cm/1.5in)
................... Stock ... Inserts ... Difference
Rear Struts
Piston length: 23.81cm 18.2cm (5.6cm/2.2in)
Body length: 36.51cm 36.3cm (0.2cm/0.08in)
gavin_leslie
Member
I pulled out a set of 88-92 MX6 strut assemblies to check on their length. Measuring like Moxnix (bottom of the strut to top of unthreaded portion of the shaft) I got 52cm(20.5") for the front and 63.4cm(25") for the rears. So it looks like the standard protege struts are about 1" longer. Thats a Loooooong strut.
Heres an odd thought. Since you will have a lot of space to make up why not shortcut things a bit? Use two sets of the REAR euro MX6 konis instead of the front and rears.
looks like the numbers say you have about 3" to make up in the front and 2" in the rear(using the F/R euro konis). Using two sets of rears would net you an extra inch in front and then you only have to make up the remaining 1" or so to get legal. Pretty much the same thing you would have had to do if you were to use the RACE insert as they are roughly the same lengths to the euro rear konis.
Gavin
Heres an odd thought. Since you will have a lot of space to make up why not shortcut things a bit? Use two sets of the REAR euro MX6 konis instead of the front and rears.
looks like the numbers say you have about 3" to make up in the front and 2" in the rear(using the F/R euro konis). Using two sets of rears would net you an extra inch in front and then you only have to make up the remaining 1" or so to get legal. Pretty much the same thing you would have had to do if you were to use the RACE insert as they are roughly the same lengths to the euro rear konis.
Gavin
Well after reading the SCCA thread you linked earlier there is another problem, the compression length of the insert. Moving the inserts so far up means the bump stop would need to be trimmed the same height much in order to make the max compression no shorter than stock. I'm not sure there is enough bump stop material to be trimmed to conform to the rule.
Using the rear in the front would work without any modifications to the strut housing and wouldn't even need spacers as they are only .169" shorter in theory. The strut insert body would be 3.6cm longer than the stock housing, which means the bump stop would need to be trimmed that much. Anyone know the length of the stock bump stop?
Using the rear in the front would work without any modifications to the strut housing and wouldn't even need spacers as they are only .169" shorter in theory. The strut insert body would be 3.6cm longer than the stock housing, which means the bump stop would need to be trimmed that much. Anyone know the length of the stock bump stop?
gavin_leslie
Member
The talk about the bumpstop is a red herring. Dont worry about it as its a non-issue in the end. I used a pretty large(but not longer than stock) bumpstop on my car, worked fine by my account. Theres no restriction on compression length, just overall length of the strut/shock.
Gavin
Gavin
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My initial measurements were from the bottom of the strut to the top of the threaded portion of the shaft (see more MS paint details attached)
If you subtract out the threaded part of the shaft on both of them you get.
Rear - 23 and 3/4"
Front - 20 and 3/4"
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I disagree. You do need to worry about when you contact the bumpstop.
13.5.D said:
I read that as saying if your shaft is 2" shorter you need to have a 2" shorter bump stop to be legal otherwise you would be getting into the bumpstop at a longer compressed length of the shock. I do not know the length of the MSP bump stops but I know they are shorter than the standard protege.
gavin_leslie
Member
I see where you are coming from, but I think you are measuring from the wrong direction. Heres how I read it.
Bolding is mine.
Compress both struts with a stock length bumpstop on the shaft. Is the "new" strut, when compressed, longer or shorter than the stock strut when compressed?
-If the "new" strut is longer then it is not legal. The longer body of the strut will contact the bumpstop earlier during roll and enact the bumpstops spring rate.
-If its the same length or shorter then it is legal.
"may not be increased" to me is another way of saying "cannot be made longer than". It plugs up the other hole in the "superlong-bumpstop-as-added-springrate" trick. You cant make the bumpstop 10" long for the extra springrate and you cant make the strut body 10" longer to contact the bumpstop sooner for the extra springrate.
(besides, if I really wanted to be a putz I could just say the language in the rules references "shocks" and not "struts", but thatd be a jack move and Id get my ass kicked
)Gavin
gavin_leslie
Member
Ack...Im a dumass. The struts I measured were complete units with springs so I couldnt actually measure to the bottom of the threaded portion.
That above sentence should have read that I measured from the bosttom of the struts to the top of the threaded portion of the strut shaft, not the unthreaded portion.
Sorry for the confusion
Gavin
Please read this post on sccaforums
http://sccaforums.com/forums/thread/202354.aspx
Orthonormal said:
I think that is the way I was measuring in my head (never sure if in head = in typing)
Let me use the numbers we have in the thread here and see if this makes sense. For the rear shocks we have a 3" difference in length (.08 in body and 2.2 in shaft). (once actually inserted I think the difference would be much less than I am saying here but just go with my numbers here)
Since with stock rules you can only have a difference of up to 1" in fully extended length you will need to shim the body 2" making the body 1.2 inches longer than stock.
The way John S explained it there makes sense to me because otherwise you would be getting into the bumpstop with less compression travel. is his explanation incorrect or am I interpreting it incorrectly?
gavin_leslie
Member
Nope. You have it right. As a matter of fact, we both have been explaining the same thing(just in different ways).
Theres a minimum and max length to meet. Minimum is stock strut body+stock bumpstop, maximum is stock strut body and extended strut shaft (plus/minus 1"). For the minimum you can subtract bumpstop and add strut length, but it all has to add up to the original strut body/bumpstop length(and you did point that out correctly and I missed it originally, so that makes you more right in the end).
Theres a lot of numbers floating around right now. Im only sure of the ones that I took of the inserts(from this to that point). They probably need to be assembled in some order so theres a clearer picture.
Why is there such a large dead spot on the rear strut shaft between the stepdown and the threaded section? Is all of that space critical (something for the upper strut assembly?)because the koni inserts do not have that much space in the same area.
Gavin
You guys are saying the same thing. My point is the strut inserts are going to stick out of the stock strut bodies by a considerable amount, therefore when compressed with the stock bump stop the travel will be less than the stock strut. The bump stops will have to be trimmed and I'm not sure if the bump stops will be long enough so there's enough material to make the insert compression travel the same as stock.
Either way this is pretty confusing. If I had a spare MSP strut laying around I would be willing to try it out, but I don't.
Either way this is pretty confusing. If I had a spare MSP strut laying around I would be willing to try it out, but I don't.
Just post a WTB - Free or Cheap blown MSP struts. You might get lucky. Or buy some cheap regular protege struts and swap yours out so you have MSP ones to work with.
Also here is a picture of the strut and everything else from the mazda parts catalog for a P5. but I can't remember if the whole length of threading is used or not in the rear.
Also here is a picture of the strut and everything else from the mazda parts catalog for a P5. but I can't remember if the whole length of threading is used or not in the rear.
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Funding is pretty tight for the rest of the year since I purchased the slicks, Schroth harness, and repair parts for my wife's car. Next year I need to do the whole timing belt, accessory belt, water pump, and possibly clutch so my budget for car stuff might be shot there too. I might look into this next year though if I the house and cars behave and nothing breaks. A "local" scrap yard has an MP3 and an MSP sitting around, so I might grab a single front and rear from them to keep costs down for the initial test, otherwise I'll post up in the WTB section.
Also, I was just thinking about this the other day. Since Koni feels it's enough to just weld a threaded tube onto the bottom of those Euro spec insert, what's stopping me from buying single adjustable RACE inserts and welding a threaded tube to the bottom of those?
Also, I was just thinking about this the other day. Since Koni feels it's enough to just weld a threaded tube onto the bottom of those Euro spec insert, what's stopping me from buying single adjustable RACE inserts and welding a threaded tube to the bottom of those?
