autox alignment
- Thread starter beavis
- Start date
as of right now i am totally stock. I want to stay in ds till i get better totall control of my car. so suspension wise i have nothing done so far. i also just purchased some kosei k1 ts wheels with kumho mx tires. I didn't want to go R compound just yet cause i would also like to spend some time in stx in the future.
Rotate the strut mounts for as much caster you can get (equally on both sides) then as much camber you can get (not much) and a little toe out on the front and a little toe out on the rear (1/16th to 1/8th). Just rotate your tires frequently and you won't have to worry about it.
If you are going STX, get some camber bolts, they are cheap and gave me -2.5 camber in the front, and -1 in the rear. Made a huge difference in the car.
Britt
If you are going STX, get some camber bolts, they are cheap and gave me -2.5 camber in the front, and -1 in the rear. Made a huge difference in the car.
Britt
Ok, I ran 1/8" toe out in the front and 1/8" toe out in the rear. This made my car turn in very sharp and the rear tracked around nicely on the sweepers. It did take me a few runs to smooth out the sloloms because it was really really loose. I ran on MXs also.
Camber bolts will bump you to STX and you probably won't be competetive in DS against any R-compounds, unless they don't drive well and you rock.
If you don't want to wear your tires too bad but still have a good alignment I would go with 1/16" toe out all the way around. And yes, 1/16" makes a difference.
Good luck.
Camber bolts will bump you to STX and you probably won't be competetive in DS against any R-compounds, unless they don't drive well and you rock.
If you don't want to wear your tires too bad but still have a good alignment I would go with 1/16" toe out all the way around. And yes, 1/16" makes a difference.
Good luck.
scapamouche
Member
I run zero toe front and rear for the street, then dial in about 1/2" rear toe OUT for autox (yes, I DO like a loose car...) I've posted my method for setting the toe quickly and accurately in the past, just do a search...
Every 3 months or so, I reset the toe all around using my ghetto string gauges, and twice a year or so I get a proper alignment to reset to zero toe all around.
Works great, lasts long time, takes about 2 min to insert or remove the toe...
Every 3 months or so, I reset the toe all around using my ghetto string gauges, and twice a year or so I get a proper alignment to reset to zero toe all around.
Works great, lasts long time, takes about 2 min to insert or remove the toe...
front toe-out gives you better turn-in. The inside tire is already started to point in the right direction, so when you turn-in it "exaggerates" how far you are actually turning the wheel. That's why running toe-out in the rear also helps get the rear to rotate better.
Give it a try, give yourself some obnoxious amounts of toe-out and see how squirrly the car is. *WARNING* If you wreck your car its not my fault! Plus your tire wear will suck too....eh, just don't do it.
Give it a try, give yourself some obnoxious amounts of toe-out and see how squirrly the car is. *WARNING* If you wreck your car its not my fault! Plus your tire wear will suck too....eh, just don't do it.
apexlater said:
and thats where that assumption loses its value. the majority of your grip is on the outside tire -- so when you turn right, the toe out has the wheel already pointing left -- counterproductive. the inside tire is doing about 15% of the work.... am i making any sense? (chair)
and yes, toe out in the rear would increase rotation, but thats because it points the rear out, not in towards the cornering line. my factory set 1/16 of toe out in the rear cannot be adjusted (thanks "multi-link beam") unless you bend the beam. it's usually bent to zero toe. if you ever get a chance to drive a spec-v, you'll know why.
The difference is that the outside tire runs on a larger radius than the inside so if you have the inside pointed towards the inside of the turn, it will make your response quicker. give it a try, you may like it. I run 0 toe front and rear since I'm fine with the turn-in and I have a 100 mile daily commute....
Yell03SpecV said:
Yell03SpecV said:
It doesn't lose any value. It's the intial turn in that is the point. And the outside wheel pointing out isn't counterproductive, you are actually not allowing the rear outside tire to to grip properly when it is pointing in the "wrong" direction, which also helps with the "rotation".
So it actually isn't any assumptions, just vehicle dynamics.
ok, the other way to understand why toe-out helps the car to rotate.
Say you are making a right turn. And as you stated before, the outside rear wheel is pointed in the "wrong" direction, ie: pointed left. Now, since it is the loaded tire it will steer the back of the car to the left, while you are trying to steer the front of the car to the right. Rotation.
Say you are making a right turn. And as you stated before, the outside rear wheel is pointed in the "wrong" direction, ie: pointed left. Now, since it is the loaded tire it will steer the back of the car to the left, while you are trying to steer the front of the car to the right. Rotation.
apexlater said:ok, the other way to understand why toe-out helps the car to rotate.
Say you are making a right turn. And as you stated before, the outside rear wheel is pointed in the "wrong" direction, ie: pointed left. Now, since it is the loaded tire it will steer the back of the car to the left, while you are trying to steer the front of the car to the right. Rotation.
right, which is why you dont want toe out in the FRONT. you want the front pointed into the turn, and the rear stepping out a bit. if you have front toe out, it's being counterproductive.
Ok, so that I don't have to type it....the entire write-up is in a link below. Hopefully this will help.
"Toe-out and Handling
All racers know the difference between toe-in and toe-out (alignment). However, the many forms of toe-out can be confusing or misunderstood. Toe-out can be found in at least one of five main forms; static toe out, toe out on turns "ackerman steering", t oe out due to bump steer, steering arm toe out, and toe out due to slip angles.
The most commonly known form of toe-out is "static" toe-out. This is where the tie rods are adjusted such that the front edges of the tires to be farther apart than the rear edges of the tires when viewing the car from above....
An unusual form of toe-out can occur at the tire's contact patch rather than at the wheel. Because the outside tire in a corner is more heavily loaded than the inside tire, the outside tire will run at a larger slip angle than the inside tire (despite th e name "slip angle," it has nothing to do with slip but rather the twisting of the contact patch in relation to the rim). This additional twist in the outside contact patch can result in the contact patches being toed-out.
These various forms have advantages and disadvantages. The objective in using toe-out with a race car is to increase the turning force generated at the front of the car. So, if your race car understeers (pushes) in the middle of a turn, then a little toe- out may help reduce or cure your problem.
The trick with toe-out is not to apply such a large amount as to cause the inside tire to exceed its grip and make it slide. This will reduce the overall turning forces. However, if the proper amount of toe-out exists, then the inside tire will generate a larger drag force. This drag force creates a torque (moment) on the whole car and helps turn it in the correct direction. The effect is essentially the same as a "cutting brake" on a dune buggy.
The additional twisting of the inside tire will help to increase the tread temperature, as well. This will help to increase the coefficient of friction and the inside tire can develop more grip for turning."
Here is the link : http://www.auto-ware.com/setup/toe_hand.htm
"Toe-out and Handling
All racers know the difference between toe-in and toe-out (alignment). However, the many forms of toe-out can be confusing or misunderstood. Toe-out can be found in at least one of five main forms; static toe out, toe out on turns "ackerman steering", t oe out due to bump steer, steering arm toe out, and toe out due to slip angles.
The most commonly known form of toe-out is "static" toe-out. This is where the tie rods are adjusted such that the front edges of the tires to be farther apart than the rear edges of the tires when viewing the car from above....
An unusual form of toe-out can occur at the tire's contact patch rather than at the wheel. Because the outside tire in a corner is more heavily loaded than the inside tire, the outside tire will run at a larger slip angle than the inside tire (despite th e name "slip angle," it has nothing to do with slip but rather the twisting of the contact patch in relation to the rim). This additional twist in the outside contact patch can result in the contact patches being toed-out.
These various forms have advantages and disadvantages. The objective in using toe-out with a race car is to increase the turning force generated at the front of the car. So, if your race car understeers (pushes) in the middle of a turn, then a little toe- out may help reduce or cure your problem.
The trick with toe-out is not to apply such a large amount as to cause the inside tire to exceed its grip and make it slide. This will reduce the overall turning forces. However, if the proper amount of toe-out exists, then the inside tire will generate a larger drag force. This drag force creates a torque (moment) on the whole car and helps turn it in the correct direction. The effect is essentially the same as a "cutting brake" on a dune buggy.
The additional twisting of the inside tire will help to increase the tread temperature, as well. This will help to increase the coefficient of friction and the inside tire can develop more grip for turning."
Here is the link : http://www.auto-ware.com/setup/toe_hand.htm
apexlater said:Ok, I ran 1/8" toe out in the front and 1/8" toe out in the rear. This made my car turn in very sharp and the rear tracked around nicely on the sweepers. It did take me a few runs to smooth out the sloloms because it was really really loose. I ran on MXs also.
Camber bolts will bump you to STX and you probably won't be competetive in DS against any R-compounds, unless they don't drive well and you rock.
If you don't want to wear your tires too bad but still have a good alignment I would go with 1/16" toe out all the way around. And yes, 1/16" makes a difference.
Good luck.
...of course it is going to be loose with toe OUT in the rear
