I'm almost done with my turbo setup. The downpipe is being made tomarrow, and I'm fabing the charge pipes this weekend. Then that's it, 200hp here I come. Now to the point of this thread. I got tired of not seeing any new topics in the F/I forum so here is something we turbo and future turbo guys can all discuss. I have been putting together a water/alcohol injection kit for my MP3. If you are asking "why in the hell would you inject water into your engine" I'll answer that. You guys and girls that have been through physics or thermodynamics already know why. It's not a steady stream of water, it is an atomized mist. In the adiabatic cycle of an engine, or the compression cycle, there is tremendous heat produced by the compression of the air. If you have ever been to Six Flags or Disney World, you have seen the misters they put out to cool the crowds. This does the same to the intake charge. Atomized water absorbs LOTS of heat. My intake charge temps after the turbo will reach up around 200 degrees even with an intercooler. Water injection can drop those temps up to 100 degrees while giving better gas mileage and also preventing detonation. Then, when the water is vaporized in the cylinder, it turnes into steam, and this will almost completely eliminates carbon deposits. I've almost got all the parts for my setup. I'll be sure to take photos along the way and write up a how to. You can buy premade kits from several companies, but the only one I've heard that is any good is the one from Aquamist($400 to $500 up to $3000). Mine will be about $150. But the Aquamist kit is totally hands off, it has an injection controler that decides when to inject the water. Mine will have manually activated switch that I will turn on, then a pressure switch that will inject water after it senses 5psi or more. That way it's not injecting water and wasting it when it's not needed at low boost levels. I've talked to spoolin a little about the kit. I'm not going to put one together and sell it but I'll help you guys out that want to make one yourself by answering any questions you have.
Anyone thinking of water/alcohol injection?
- Thread starter big_ben
- Start date
Man that is sweet. Everything is comming along here. Glad to see more forum members going F/I. Ben, I have been thinking about this too. You are going to use an RV water pump right. That would be great, when its done. Perhaps you can do a write up on it. That would help all of us out going F/I especially the guys that will go with a supercharger, especially since the will have higher intake temps.
On a side note. I raced a 2002 m3 on the highway today. We got up to very high speeds. I stayed with him until about 120 mph. He was a little ahead of me about 2 -3 car lengths up to 120 then I backed off, but he was pretty impressed that I could hang with him.
On a side note. I raced a 2002 m3 on the highway today. We got up to very high speeds. I stayed with him until about 120 mph. He was a little ahead of me about 2 -3 car lengths up to 120 then I backed off, but he was pretty impressed that I could hang with him.
Hey Ben I have some interesting info regarding injection.
Over at a shop down here (toyomoto) they were turbo charging a is300 that was being sent to the Dominican Republic. The gas is real bad over there (89 octane). So they were running the car on 89 gas @ 12 psi with lost of pinging putting out 420 to the wheels. After using alchol/water injection they ran the car at an even higher boost level (15psi) with absolutly no detonation and a healthy 480 hp to the wheels! So this stuff really helps cure detonation and intake temps. The kit they sell comes with a nice water tight cell that mounts in the trunk. The switch is boost sensative so it only spray after 4 psi of manifold pressure and has a cool light that mounts on the dash that tells you when fluids are getting depleted. So whats the cost for all this? 500+ beans
I would like to see how much your parts list will cost Ben, I bet it would be a bit cheaper and almost just as good! If its the right price, I think I will put one on my car and crank up the boost!
Over at a shop down here (toyomoto) they were turbo charging a is300 that was being sent to the Dominican Republic. The gas is real bad over there (89 octane). So they were running the car on 89 gas @ 12 psi with lost of pinging putting out 420 to the wheels. After using alchol/water injection they ran the car at an even higher boost level (15psi) with absolutly no detonation and a healthy 480 hp to the wheels! So this stuff really helps cure detonation and intake temps. The kit they sell comes with a nice water tight cell that mounts in the trunk. The switch is boost sensative so it only spray after 4 psi of manifold pressure and has a cool light that mounts on the dash that tells you when fluids are getting depleted. So whats the cost for all this? 500+ beans
I would like to see how much your parts list will cost Ben, I bet it would be a bit cheaper and almost just as good! If its the right price, I think I will put one on my car and crank up the boost!Terry, I know exactly what you are talking about. I have seen lots of write ups on the web about how to buile the exact same kits as you are talking about. The boost pressure switch is $20 from NAPA. You can wire the low fluid level sensor using a low fluid sensor from a washer tank from a junkyard. The kit you are speaking of that has all the "bells and wistles" would probably cost you about $250 if you put it together yourself. And about the pinging reduction, I've read about several guys running and extra 6psi or more just because they built a simple water injection kit. The key to the kit and it safety is in the check valve you buy and the atomizing nozzels. Don't be cheap on these. My one Nozzel cost like $25 and the check valve cost $15. These arent just crappy nozzels. These are very fine atomizing nozzels. You are completely safe with them. And the check valve doesn't let water through unless it is at 5psi of pressure.
Oh yeah, I didn't explain the alcohol. Well, the water just takes up space that fuel could use inside the cylinder. If you use some type of stable fuel that cools like alcohol when it disipates, it will combust just like gas. Instead of having all water, you can mix about 50/50 or less alky like 30/50 so you can get some use from what you inject. You don't have to use it all the time though, just for certain times like on the track or when you know you need the extra umph for racing.
Hey Ben,
Once you complete kit would you be able to do a write up with all the part numbers ect? That would be real cool and highly appreciated I think I am going to go this route as well.
And what are the function of the check valves and what type or brand of nozzel are you using?
Sorry for all the questions just curious on the workings of your future setup
Thanks
Terry
Once you complete kit would you be able to do a write up with all the part numbers ect? That would be real cool and highly appreciated
I think I am going to go this route as well.And what are the function of the check valves and what type or brand of nozzel are you using?
Sorry for all the questions just curious on the workings of your future setup
Thanks
Terry
How about posting a tech article and then making it a sticky? I'm going to be going the supercharged route and water injection is one of the things I was going to explore. It was really popular back in the 70's and early 80's when people were trying to get their high compression late 60's cars to run on the crap gas that started showing up then. I've always been interested in it but haven't really needed it on a car until now. I'm going with an Eaton M62 as I've posted before and if I could get the inlet temps down, I could run 9-10 psi instead of the 6-7 I'm planning on. I already know of people that dyno tested at 9 psi on a Probe motor to the tune of 209 HP @ the wheels. Sign me up for that....
Antoine
Administrator
Well Well...This idea of water injection seems like a great idea/solution for high intake charge temps and for running higher boost levels...BUT...Mr. Bell states in the Maximum Boost book that it and I quote: "It has little place in a properly conceived turbo system"...are we talking about the same thing? He seems very anti-water injection...why is that? It seems like a viable way to safely enhance f/i performance...
lol...another quote "A water injector on a turbo car is a poor-excuse band-aid for not doing the job correctly the first time"
This wouldnt bother me so much...but doesn't this guy know a thing or two about F/I? lol
or maybe hes talking about some other type of injection system...
lol...another quote "A water injector on a turbo car is a poor-excuse band-aid for not doing the job correctly the first time"
This wouldnt bother me so much...but doesn't this guy know a thing or two about F/I? lol
or maybe hes talking about some other type of injection system...
I'll write up a how to after I'm done with it and I'll give part numbers and different places you can get the stuff. As for what Bell says about water injection, he is partly right. If you want to use water injection because you built a bad turbo system and it's pinging like crazy and you cant get it to stop, that's bad. But if you just want the water injecton to suplement the intercooler so that you can turn up the boost once in a while and give you that needed warm and fuzzy when you do it, it's good. I've read nothing but good things about water injection. I have read about guys using the turbo to atomize the water by squirting it in prior to the turbo. But they have reported that the leading edges of their turbo are getting eaten away by the water hitting it. That's how fast that thing spins! I've also read about people not using nozzels that atomize the water completely and doing damage to their motor. Build a bad kit and you'll get bad results.
All this is V E R Y interesting. I don't think about water injection for now because I still have some other priority like timing and knocking sensor but maybe later...
The idea of a tech article is realy good. Keep up the good work big_ben.... and I hope you got a digital camera to get us some pictures of your setup soon!!!
The idea of a tech article is realy good. Keep up the good work big_ben.... and I hope you got a digital camera to get us some pictures of your setup soon!!!
It's not like this is new technology. The U.S. Army Air Corps used it in WWII on many of its fighter aircraft. Anything with a Pratt and Whitney twin wasp had that to increase service ceiling as well as performance in a dogfight. Those were some pretty impressive air cooled/supercharged engines.
Thought you guys might be interested in this. I've se-mailed them a request for price no word yet.
Enjoy
Turbonetics Inc
2255 Agate Court
Simi Valley, CA 93065
805-581-0333 phone
805-584-1913 fax
TURBO water injection system
Spearco, the intercooler experts, offers a water injection system designed specifically for all turbocharged and supercharged vehicles.
This system reduces air charge temperature on turbocharged engines, with or without intercoolers, and increases air density resulting in additional horsepower and torque. On engines equipped with detonation sensor controlled ignition systems, it will maintain maximum spark advance even on low octane fuels.
Features include:
Compact .4 gallon aluminum reservoir with three mounting positions for universal placement in the engine compartment
Injects water upstream or downstream of the turbocharger/supercharger
Pump is controlled by an adjustable, O.E. quality pressure switch
Kit includes 3 different size, specially designed injection nozzles.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Part Number 980 - Turbo Water Injection System
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Enjoy
Turbonetics Inc
2255 Agate Court
Simi Valley, CA 93065
805-581-0333 phone
805-584-1913 fax
TURBO water injection system
Spearco, the intercooler experts, offers a water injection system designed specifically for all turbocharged and supercharged vehicles.
This system reduces air charge temperature on turbocharged engines, with or without intercoolers, and increases air density resulting in additional horsepower and torque. On engines equipped with detonation sensor controlled ignition systems, it will maintain maximum spark advance even on low octane fuels.
Features include:
Compact .4 gallon aluminum reservoir with three mounting positions for universal placement in the engine compartment
Injects water upstream or downstream of the turbocharger/supercharger
Pump is controlled by an adjustable, O.E. quality pressure switch
Kit includes 3 different size, specially designed injection nozzles.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Part Number 980 - Turbo Water Injection System
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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I've read lots about this water injection kit from Spearco. I have read that all of it is good except for the pump they supply. This kit is a little over $200. The only kit I would buy, if I were going to buy one instead of making my own, is the Aquamist kit for like $350. If you research it a little on the net you can learn all the pros and cons of all these kits.
big_ben
I found this at: www.flyinmiata.com/ or from http://www.3sxperformance.com/alcoholinj.asp
Is this the same kit your talking about?
Item number 05-36000
Our price: $495.00
Quantity:
Aquamist water injection
A bespoke 100 psi pump and custom nozzles ensure reliable knock control for engines breathing pressurized air. This works well with a turbo or supercharger to ensure your engine's safety at high boost. Supercharged applications will need a check valve to keep the manifold vacuum from drawing water out of the pump. Extra nozzles are also available. Not for naturally aspirated cars.
I found this at: www.flyinmiata.com/ or from http://www.3sxperformance.com/alcoholinj.asp
Is this the same kit your talking about?
Item number 05-36000
Our price: $495.00
Quantity:
Aquamist water injection
A bespoke 100 psi pump and custom nozzles ensure reliable knock control for engines breathing pressurized air. This works well with a turbo or supercharger to ensure your engine's safety at high boost. Supercharged applications will need a check valve to keep the manifold vacuum from drawing water out of the pump. Extra nozzles are also available. Not for naturally aspirated cars.
Last edited:
Thanks guys,
HP I don't know just got my turbo back this morning from being rebuilt by Majestic Turbo in TX. Maybe I'll get it back on the car tonight and take it to the local 1/4 mile tack and get some times. Mods yup I've done about everything and got more planned. I need to find away to cool the intake temps down I really like the water injection idea. Cheaper than a new front mounted intercooler.
Right now I'm waiting on the Mazdaspeed sway bars to come out. Next will be a ACT clutch and LSD, Lexaten rear windows, Hoosiers 215 tires and some light weight wheels for AutoXing.
HP I don't know just got my turbo back this morning from being rebuilt by Majestic Turbo in TX. Maybe I'll get it back on the car tonight and take it to the local 1/4 mile tack and get some times. Mods yup I've done about everything and got more planned. I need to find away to cool the intake temps down I really like the water injection idea. Cheaper than a new front mounted intercooler.
Right now I'm waiting on the Mazdaspeed sway bars to come out. Next will be a ACT clutch and LSD, Lexaten rear windows, Hoosiers 215 tires and some light weight wheels for AutoXing.
